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by Ian Williams Goddard
The question was recently put to me in the course of an internet dialog regarding conspiracy theories, "Ian, can you give examples of conspiracy theories which have been proven true?" Toward the satisfaction of this question I offered the following:
IAN: If we define "proven true" as "that which is accepted by the GovtMedia," and thus by the majority of people, I'd be hard-pressed to point to a conspiracy "proven true."
If we define "proven true" as "consistent with facts," then there are many conspiracy theories proven true, such as:
CONSPIRACY THEORY 1: Attica prison guards killed all the prisoners and hostages during the 1971 Attica prison riot.
FACT: The GovtMedia reported that the prisoners cut the hostage's throats. Headlines even read "I Saw The Slit Thoughts." Recently, 25 years later, the man who did the autopsies, Dr. Baden, said on the HBO series "Autopsy" that the guards shot everyone and the stories to the contrary were a Big Lie. Yet the media line is still the govt line. It becomes clear after a little research that the media serves the State.
CONSPIRACY THEORY 2: Many people who died during the final assault on the Branch Davidian community in Waco, TX, were killed by the FBI, not at the hands of Davidian members as reported. The GovtMedia con- spires to cover-up and censor facts proving this.
FACT 1: In November of '93, pathologist Dr. Rodney Crowe, who did autopsies on surviving bodies from the Waco fire, said on the Maury Povich Show that the children who died of blunt-force trauma were in fact * crushed to death after a tank collapsed a concrete wall on them. * The children and their mothers -- over 40 women and children -- were this concrete room (which the govt called "the bunker") trying to survive, not to kill themselves as the GovtMedia would have us think. They were all killed. The GovtMedia told us that these children were "beaten to death by their parent in the final moments." Dr. Crowe was irate about this gross example of GovtMedia disinformation.
FACT 2: Medical examiner Nizaam Peerwani testified at the Davidian's trial that three women and six children in that concrete room died of suffocation *before* the fire. He suspects it was due to CS gas (Trial transcripts: 5979, 6029). Did you hear about that on the news? Nope. Ms. Reno said she does not think CS can be lethal to children, yet the label on all CS canisters says that CS used indoors can be fatal to children. Before the fire, a tank shot several * exploding * CS rounds point- blank into that small room filled with women and children. Mt. Carmel was heavily bugged, so they had to know where the women and children were. Notice how these *facts* are censored from all news coverage. That is itself proof of conspiracy to cover-up mass murder. More:
FACT 3: According to former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark, infra-red (FLIR) video taken from the FBI's own helicopter proves that the FBI fired heavily with full-auto-machine-guns into the Mt. Carmel center just as the fire started, which was when people would most likely try to exit. The FLIR video also proves that Davidians did NOT fire out at the tanks on that day as reported by the GovtMedia. That bit of disinformation was a key pretext to speeding up the demolition of the building. Ramsey Clark will be using this FLIR video in upcoming wrongful death suits against the so-called "Department of Justice." Ramsey Clark spoke about this FLIR video
footage at the April 19, 1996 memorial gathering in Waco, TX.FACT 4: Toxicologist Dr. William Marcus, testified at the Congressional Hearings on Waco that the CS molecule contains a "cyanide radical" that could have been transdermally absorbed by the children due to their thin skin. CS also converts to hydrogen cyanide when burned. In fact, surviving bodies where found to contain very high levels of cyanide. Dr. Marcus also observed that CS is a heavy particle that is suspended in the air like a gas only for a brief period when carried by the flammable and toxic agent methyl chloride, thus CS particles fall quickly to the ground. The FBI calculated that if spread evenly over the known sq. feet of indoor space, the tons of CS pumped in should not have exceeded safe levels. But this is a deception because, as CS quickly falls, very high concentrations would be found toward the floor along with the children and fallen adults, in fact, 10 to 100 times higher than if uniformly distributed.
I believe that these facts prove the conspiracy theory that the Government killed many or most of the people who died on April 19, 1993 at Waco, TX. The facts also strongly suggest, to say the least, that the Government killed with intent. They also prove that the media censors all those facts that indicate Government culpability in favor of false claims that demonize the victims of Government abuse, thereby rendering the media a willing accessory to mass murder and to the obstruction of justice. For more on Waco.
CONSPIRACY THEORY 3: The FBI facilitated and allowed the World Trade Center bombing to happen when they could have stopped it.
FACTS: As reported by The New York Times (10/28/93) and CNN, Mr. Salem, a 43-year-old former Egyptian Army officer, was used by the FBI to infiltrate the terrorists later charged in the Trade Center bombing. The original plan told to Mr. Salem was that his job was to see to it that fake explosives were used, then the bombers would be busted for planting what they thought was a real bomb with no possibility of anybody getting hurt. A good plan. Mr. Salem secretly tape-recorded hundreds of hours of his telephonic communications with authorities without their knowledge.
The recordings reveal that the FBI changed the original plan and told Mr. Salem NOT to use the fake explosives but to use REAL explosives. The FBI agent who told him to use real explosives was adamant about this. I saw and heard this on CNN in '93 and could not believe my eyes and ears, I thought, "We'll never hear the end of this." Boy was I wrong, it totally disappeared. Alas, there is an excerpt of some of this that was printed in The New York Times (10/28/93).
While these recordings were played in preliminary court hearings, they were barred from the actual trial because Mr. Salem made them without the permission of the FBI agents. The Government can bug you without your permission, but the opposite is not also true -- that's tyranny. The tapes exist, and they prove that the FBI de facto orchestrated the bombing of the World Trade Center, an act that would result in massive new police powers for the FBI. However, because the tapes were barred from court, the media simply pretends they don't exist and the truth is forever nullified from the official GovtMedia story, exiled to the dark allies of seedy conspiracy theory.
They say that tens of thousands would have died if the truck-bomb had been able to park in the spot the bombers had reserved, right next to a key column, but when they got there a car had taken their spot. I'd like to think someone knew about this and parked the car there to save the lives of thousands of people.
CONSPIRACY THEORY 4: The FBI fabricated evidence in the Oklahoma bombing investigation.
FACT: Associated Press 04/10/96 reports that (emphasis added):
Prosecutors agreed to turn over letters from FBI agent Frederic Whitehurts, who tested Mr. McVeigh's cloths for traces of explosives. Mr. Whitehurst has claimed that investigators FAKED evidence in the bombing case. ^^^^^CONSPIRACY THEORY 5: The Government was both involved in the April 19, 1993 Oklahoma City bombing and had foreknowledge of it, and both the Government and the media are covering this up.
FACT 1: Former Grand Juror Hoppy Heidelberg, in charge of evidence in the Oklahoma City bombing case, told the press that, "No one who saw McVeigh with other suspects [ such as John Doe #2 ], was ever allowed to testify before the Federal Grand Jury." Mr. Heidelberg was eventually thrown off the jury after he refused to stop asking questions about John Doe 2. His review of the best available evidence lead him to conclude, as was reported in both the USA Today (10/19/95) and the AP:
"I think they [the Government] know who John Doe 2 is, and they are protecting him. This is because John Doe 2 was either a government agent or a government informant. Either way they [the Government] had... prior knowledge to the bombing and that's what they can't afford to come out."After this single report in the media, Mr. Heidelburg's story is for all intents and purposes gone with the wind -- no long part of the picture.
FACT 2: The Portland newspaper the OREGONIAN (4/20/95), states that Judge Wayne Alley, whose office sits across from the Murrah building, was warned several days prior to the blast by "security specialists" to take "special precautions." This story never resurfaced.
FACT 3: The USA Today (4/20/95) reported that Harvy Weathers, of the Oklahoma City Fire Department, said that the fire dept. had received a call from the FBI prior to the bombing stating that there would be "some people entering the city over the weekend." Weathers did not explain what this meant, but obviously an army of FBI were to enter the city after the bombing later the next week. "Over the weekend" would have been a few days before the bombing. Then consider that:
FACT 4: Oklahoma State Representative Charles Key says that he knows of two witnesses who overheard ATF employees state that they were warned not to come to work that day, indeed, even as the ATF was the supposed target of the bombing, no ATF agents were killed, and few if any showed up for work that day. Representative Key also points out that bomb squad employees were seen in front of the building at 7:15 am, about two hours prior to the blast. Rep. Key has conducted his own investigation and was so shocked with the evidence he uncovered, he compiled it into a video presentation.
FACT 5: As reported by the Associated Press, the McVeigh defense team is in possession of a tape of a call made by the FBI to Oklahoma City officials warning of a possible terrorist event in the next few days made several days prior to the blast.
FACT 6: As reported widely on CNN and TV stations across the nation, up to four primed bombs were found and defused inside what remained of the Murrah Center Federal Building on April 19, 1995. I have much of this on tape. How could bombs have been placed inside a large Government building without inside Government connections ?
FACT 7: According to CNN, the bombs were found by bomb sniffing dogs. The ATF later said they were dummy bombs used for bomb training in the busy downtown office building. If true, then, containing no explosives, explosives detecting dogs would not had tracked them down as they did, nor would munitions technicians have spent so much time defusing them as they did, for, training bombs are always clearly labeled as such. The ATF's "dummy bomb" story, is at odds with the facts.
FACT 8: KFOR-TV in Oklahoma City reported on the 19th that two or more of the bombs found inside were "far larger in magnitude than the fist that went off INSIDE the building" (seismic recorders at two locations both recorded TWO blasts). A terrorist expert, Dr. Randall Heather, on KFOR-TV said, "We have both of the bombs that were defused at the site and they are being taken apart." The news coverage went on to say that another bomb was found strapped to a column next to the day-care center. Up to four unexploded bombs where found inside by the end of the day.
FACT 9: Brigadier General Partin (USAF, Air Force Armament Technology Laboratory, ret.), one of the top munitions experts in the world, says that blast damage patterns are NOT consistent with an ANFO truck bomb. He says that demolition charges had to be placed on the columns, and sure enough, one was found attached to a column that failed to go off. Important excerpts of Partin's report are avaible on the web (a very large page, select no graphics for speed).
FACT 10: The publication Veritas (5/9/95) reports that bomb technicians inside the building on the 19th, who were finding the unexploded bombs inside the building, were heard to say over police radio:
First voice: Boy your not going to believe this! Second voice: Believe what? First voice: I can't believe it... this is a military bomb!Michele Marie Moore, an investigator in Oklahoma City, has writen a comprehensive book based on extensive eyewitness accounts and recordings of hundreds of hours of local TV, Police, Fire and EMT broadcasts that reveal the shocking untold story about what really happened in OK City. The result of the bombing was that the police forces of the federal Government were given massive new powers granted by the "Anti-terrorist Bill" signed at a large White House ceremony exactly one year after the OK bombing.
You can also purchase the book "OKBOMB, Conspiracy and Cover-up," from A-albionic Research, P.O. Box 20273, Ferndale, MI 48220, for $18.90.
Recommended Waco fact reference: "The Davidian Massacre." $9.00 book rate, or $11.00 first class. Mail to: Carol Moore, Box 65518, Washington, D.C. 20035. Disclaimer: I'm not making any money off the sale of these books.
The above listing of facts is but a drop in the bucket of all facts that support and/or prove conspiracy on the part of the Government in only the few cases cited above. Needless to say there are many other cases with significant evidence to suggest Government conspiracy, such as the assassinations of President John F. Kennedy and civil rights leader Martin Luther King, the Jonestown atrocity, the running of drugs,... All largely or entirely censored by the major media, except as the stories are breaking, prior to an organized effort to suppress.
A society whose citizens refuse to see and investigate the facts, who refuse to believe that their Government and their media will routinely lie to them and fabricate a reality contrary to verifiable facts, is a society that chooses and deserves the Police State Dictatorship it's going to get.
© 1996 Ian Goddard - All Rights Reserved - Reprinted With Permission
FYI..
Does anyone know where I can get about 100 copies of "Catcher in the Rye" with the Queen of Diamonds dust jacket? That's the one published by Ipcress Press with the introduction by Robert Frost: "The snow if lovely, dark and deep, and I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep."
Conspiracy, conspiracy, conspiracy! Ever since the globalist run media has gotten on this "conspiracy" business, it has become fashionable for twits everywhere to label every little flap, a "conspiracy"
When I use the term "conspiracy" it is a direct reference (only) to THE grand conspiracy to subvert American soverignty, remove all freedoms, and create a (totalitarian) slave state.
There's lots of collusion and skulduggery going on, on behalf of the BIG conspiracy, but there's only one BIG copnspiracy. And I don't think most people realize how BIG it is.
"It's readily apparent that "conspiracy theory" is a label that is applied to facts that are inconvenient to the government. It's almost a tell-tale sign that the story is indeed true, and is the subject of an active coverup.."
Do not forget the biggest attempt in "pop culture"to discredit any thoery that does not fit. The movie Conspiracy Theory was an an attempt through the medium of Hollywood. After this movie, the mere mention of an alternative theory was laughed off as a "conspiracy theory." Not by all to be sure...but this label with its connotation has endured with the help of major talking heads who used and continue to use the term with a slight smirk on their face.
Therefore, using the term alternative theory might be better in the sense that it sets up situation where it is suggested that the government has a theory, and that one's alternative theory is on equal parr. Otherwise, it will always be pointed out, oh, that's the "conspiracy theory" vs. the "government investigation."
BIG BUMP
I just love conspiracy theories...don't you?
Thanks!
The best way to stop a sacandal is to call it "conspiracy"!
Thats why we love em so much.
One should study the history of conspiracy, not just bandy theories around.
However, remember the scientific definition of a theory is a hipothesis that takes into account and satisfactorily explains all the known facts.
--very nice overview article. It readily and easily points out some of the more glaring examples. One currently running is the twa 800 shootdown. Another one that might eventually come out is the olympics blast. I can name several more, but will be content to wait for someone else to bring them up. A favorite subject of mine. I always am amused by those who use 'black helicopters" in derision whenever replying to something, when they actually exist! That's a funny one to me.
Media psyops manipulation actually follows just normal debate tactics if you look at it closely. Only the scale and complexity are different.
When I use the term "conspiracy" it is a direct reference (only) to THE grand conspiracy to subvert American soverignty, remove all freedoms, and create a (totalitarian) slave state.
You mean this?
THE UNITED STATES PROGRAM
FOR GENERAL AND COMPLETE DISARMAMENT
IN A PEACEFUL WORLD
DEPARTMENT OF STATE
DEPARTMENT OF STATE PUBLICATION 7277
Disarmament Series 5
Released September 1961
Office of Public Services
BUREAU OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS
For sale by the Superintendent ot Documents, U.S. Government
Printing Office, Washington 25, D.C. - Price 15 cents
The revolutionary development of modern weapons within a world divided by serious ideological differences has produced a crisis in human history. In order to overcome the danger of nuclear war now confronting mankind, the United States has introduced, at the Sixteenth General Assembly of the United Nations, a Program for General and Complete Disarmament in a Peaceful World.
This new program provides for the progressive reduction of the war-making capabilities of nations and the simultaneous strengthening of international institutions to settle disputes and maintain the peace. It sets forth a series of comprehensive measures which can and should be taken in order to bring about a world in which there will be freedom from war and security for all states. It is based on three principles deemed essential to the achievement of practical progress in the disarmament field:
There follows a summary of the principal provisions of the United States Program for General and Complete Disarmament in a Peaceful World. The full text of the program is contained in an appendix to this pamphlet.
DISARMAMENT GOAL AND OBJECTIVES
The overall goal of the United States is a free, secure, and peaceful world of independent states adhering to common standards of justice and international conduct and subjecting the use of force to the rule of law; a world which has achieved general and complete disarmament under effective international control; and a world in which adjustment to change takes place in accordance with the principles of the United Nations.
In order to make possible the achievement of that goal, the program sets forth the following specific objectives toward which nations should direct their efforts:
TASKS OF NEGOTIATING STATES
The negotiating states are called upon to develop the program into a detailed plan for general and complete disarmament and to continue their efforts without interruption until the whole program has been achieved. To this end, they are to seek the widest possible area of agreement at the earliest possible date. At the same time, and without prejudice to progress on the disarmament program, they are to seek agreement on those immediate measures that would contribute to the common security of nations and that could facilitate and form part of the total program.
The program sets forth a series of general principles to guide the negotiating states in their work. These make clear that:
The program provides for progressive disarmament steps to take place in three stages and for the simultaneous strengthening of international institutions.
The first stage contains measures which would significantly reduce the capabilities of nations to wage aggressive war. Implementation of this stage would mean that:
The second stage contains a series of measures which would bring within sight a world in which there would be freedom from war. Implementation of all measures in the second stage would mean:
During the third stage of the program, the states of the world, building on the experience and confidence gained in successfully implementing the measures of the first two stages, would take final steps toward the goal of a world in which:
DECLARATION ON DISARMAMENT
THE UNITED STATES PROGRAM
FOR GENERAL AND COMPLETE DISARMAMENT
IN A PEACEFUL WORLD
The Nations of the world,
Conscious of the crisis in human history produced by the revolutionary development of modern weapons within a world divided by serious ideological differences;
Determined to save present and succeeding generations from the scourge of war and the dangers and burdens of the arms race and to create conditions in which all peoples can strive freely and peacefully to fulfill their basic aspirations;
Declare their goal to be: A free, secure, and peaceful world of independent states adhering to common standards of justice and international conduct and subjecting the use of force to the rule of law; a world where adjustment to change takes place in accordance with the principles of the United Nations; a world where there shall be a permanent state of general and complete disarmament under effective international control and where the resources of nations shall be devoted to man's material, cultural, and spiritual advance;
Call on the negotiating states:
Affirm that disarmament negotiations should be guided by the following principles:
Agree upon the following outline program for achieving general and complete disarmament:
A. To Establish an International Disarmament Organization:
B. To Reduce Armed Forces and Armaments:
C. To Contain and Reduce the Nuclear Threat:
D. To Reduce Strategic Nuclear Weapons Delivery Vehicles:
E. To Promote the Peaceful Use of Outer Space:
F. To Reduce the Risks of War by Accident, Miscalculation, and Surprise Attack:
G. To Keep the Peace:
A. International Disarmament Organization:
B. To Further Reduce Armed Forces and Armaments:
C. To Further Reduce the Nuclear Threat:
D. To Further Reduce Strategic Nuclear Weapons Delivery Vehicles:
E. To Keep the Peace:
During Stage II, states shall develop further the peace-keeping processes of the United Nations, to the end that the United Nations can effectively in Stage III deter or suppress any threat or use of force in violation of the purposes and principles of the United Nations:
By the time Stage II has been completed, the confidence produced through a verified disarmament program, the acceptance of rules of peaceful international behavior, and the development of strengthened international peace-keeping processes within the framework of the U.N. should have reached a point where the states of the world can move forward to Stage III. In Stage III progressive controlled disarmament and continuously developing principles and procedures of international law would proceed to a point where no state would have the military power to challenge the progressively strengthened U.N. Peace Force and all international disputes would be settled according to the agreed principles of international conduct.
The progressive steps to be taken during the final phase of the disarmament program would be directed toward the attainment of a world in which:
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE: 11161 O-609147 =================================================================
That book by Michele Marie Moore seems interesting. That webpage is down though. Has anybody else read her book? What do you think? I like the fact it uses EMT comments in it as well, something I have not seen before.
I have a BIG problem with this statement from Goddard:
If we define "proven true" as "that which is accepted by the GovtMedia," and thus by the majority of people, I'd be hard-pressed to point to a conspiracy "proven true."
I have to give him a little room on the "majority of people" as the majority of people don't know much about anything, but there are many conspiracies involving U.S. government agents which have been exposed and ultimately admitted by the government and the media.
Off the top of my head:
Following World War II, Allied troops were ordered to force back to Soviet controlled territory 2 million former residents of those areas who had escaped westward. There are documented cases of parents killing their own children then committing suicide to avoid the fate they expected at Stalin's hands. This was effectively covered up until the early 80s, though thousands of Americans participated in these forced repatriations.
The Tuskeegee "Study" -- Negro males [399 of them IIRC] afflicted with syphilis were denied treatment so the progress of the disease could be monitored. In the early days of the study there was little effective treatment available, but it continued until 1973 and every subject of the study was determined to have died of the disease.
COINTELPRO -- An FBI "counterintelligence" program operated to eliminate radical political opposition to the established social and political order. Primarily directed at black activists and leaders (from ML King to the Black Panthers) it is today widely acknowledged that the FBI attempted to encourage the suicides of subjects, the assassination of subjects by their own allies, and undertook numerous actions to undermine or destroy legitimate political dissent.
MK-Ultra -- research started during World War II to find effective mind-control techniques using hypnosis and/or various pharmaceuticals. During the course of the program both U.S. militry personnel and civilians were subjected to experimentation with LSD and other exotic drugs, often without their informed consent.
Radiation tests -- In the 50's U.S. Army soldiers were marched within miles of aboveground Atomic bomb tests. They were told there would be no adverse effects but -- guess what?
Agent Orange -- despite years of denials by the U.S. government, there has now been identified a conclusive linke between Agent Orange (dioxin) exposure and non-Hodgkins lymphoma as well as spina bifida in the offspring of exposure victims. In the mid-80s it was established that employees in the U.S. Center for Disease Control located in Atlanta Georgia had shredded a research finding linking Agent Orange and non-Hodgkins lymphoma.
The Tonkin Gulf "incident" which never happened.
Bombing of Cambodia -- In the latter days of the Vietnam War the bombing of Cambodia was not only secret, it was contrary to U.S. law. While it was occurring there were a vast number of reports from the region about it, but of course the USG denied them all. One of the Articles of Impeachment approved in committee in the House against President Nixon was for this unlawful bombing. (Conspiracies don't have to be ill-advised, they just have to be unlawful.)
Iran-Contra -- we all know about that one, but there are many disturbing details which have not been acknowledged by gov or media. While many argue that the Boland Amendment which made U.S. support of the Contras unlawful was itself un-Constitutional, circumventing it rather than challenging its Constitutionality was certainly a conspiracy.
U.S. government orchestration and support of the overthrow of Ngo Dihn Diem, President of a sovereign nation and ally, South Vietnam. In the face of accusations that the USG was behind the overthrow, official denials were repeated for over a decade, but the truth is now known, and acknowledged.
Mustard gas experiments on as many as 60,000 U.S. military personnel, denied by the U.S. government, of course, for decades.
Living Vietnam War POWs abandoned -- At the very time President Nixon was announcing to a national TV audience in April of 1973 that "all the POWs are home" memos and message traffic indicates firm knowledge that some living American prisoners had been left behind. Denial of their existence persisted for years. In 1991 Senate testimony 3 former Secretaries of Defense (under pressure during questioning) admitted that they believed some had been abandoned in captivity in 1973.
Therefore, using the term alternative theory might be better in the sense that it sets up situation where it is suggested that the government has a theory, and that one's alternative theory is on equal parr. Otherwise, it will always be pointed out, oh, that's the "conspiracy theory" vs. the "government investigation."
Even if we were to rename these controversial theories "alternative" theories, the news media and the shills will ALWAYS refer to them as "conspiracy theories". That and you may see a few references to Reynolds wrap here and there. It is by no means accidental, but is simply one trick of many that is used to discredit information and/or the individuals who have presented that information...
You might find the following links informative:
PROPAGANDA TECHNIQUES
Psychological Operations and the Verbiage of War
please see #13
--very nice overview article. It readily and easily points out some of the more glaring examples. One currently running is the twa 800 shootdown. For anybody who wants to check that out, you can get to that thread by clicking the link below...
We saw TWA Flight 800 Shot Down by Missiles - Part 2
I always am amused by those who use 'black helicopters" in derision whenever replying to something, when they actually exist! That's a funny one to me.
Odd that we haven't seen those or the images of Reynolds wrap for awhile now.. :)
Media psyops manipulation actually follows just normal debate tactics if you look at it closely. Only the scale and complexity are different.
CNN is famous for that...
Salinger 'totally sure' TWA 800 missile theory is true
FBI interviews Salinger on TWA, discredits 'friendly fire' document
NTSB: "No physical evidence" missile brought down TWA 800
The CNN/Government (Selective) Hearing
TWA missile theory co-author apologizes
CNN's IAN GODDARD TWA 800 "PLOT"
How about installing Pinochet in Chile (or was that ever proven)?
If Oswald was innocent, why did he shoot Tippit?
Yes, I mean that, and all that has come before it for the last 100 years or more!
That book by Michele Marie Moore seems interesting. That webpage is down though. Has anybody else read her book? What do you think? I like the fact it uses EMT comments in it as well, something I have not seen before.
Amazon.com has it, but it's a special order item.
You can check it out by clicking here Oklahoma City : Day One by Michele Marie Moore
Simple. Oswald didn't shoot Tippit. Or Kennedy either, for that matter.
Living Vietnam War POWs abandoned ....
I was in the Navy in 1975, and they said that if we were to be taken prisoner of war, we would never be abandoned.
Of course, that was before IIRC a KGB General came over to the US and testified that dozens of servicemen, mostly pilots, were taken to a Czech mental hospital and fully debriefed and then offed.
"Atrocities in Vietnam"
"Sejna testified that the same things went on in North Vietnam and Laos during the Vietnam War, noting, "The only difference is the operation in Vietnam was better planned and more American POWs were used, both in Vietnam and Laos and in the Soviet Union." On several occasions, testified General Sejna, "my office was responsible for organizing the shipments of POWs and their housing in Prague before they were shipped to the Soviet Union. I personally was present when American POWs were unloaded from planes, put on buses whose windows had been painted black, and then driven to Prague, where they were placed in various military intelligence barracks and other secure buildings until they were shipped to the Soviet Union. Between 1961 and 1968, when I left Czechoslovakia, I would estimate at least 200 American POWs were shipped to the Soviet Union through Czechoslovakia." There may have been more, Sejna conjectured, shipped through North Korea and East Germany, though of these he had no firsthand knowledge. There were intelligence reports, however, of Americans being handed over to the Chinese during the Korean War, and Czech intelligence learned that the North Vietnamese provided U.S. prisoners to Red China.
Who knew of this? In Czechoslovakia, the general estimated, fewer than 15 people were aware of the transfer of Americans to the Soviet Union. As the written instructions said, at the beginning of the Soviet operation in 1951, the operation was to be conducted in such a way that "no one would ever know about it." Regrettably, that cloak of silence long included American officials as accessories to the suppression. "I am only sorry," remarked General Sejna, "that it has taken so long to find some people here in America who are interested in the Soviet operation designed to use American POWs."
Good Stuff in this thread. I'm saving it on the OKBOMB disc I've made.
Thanks.
I have a BIG problem with this statement from Goddard:
If we define "proven true" as "that which is accepted by the GovtMedia," and thus by the majority of people, I'd be hard-pressed to point to a conspiracy "proven true."
I believe he was speaking somewhat figuratively, but then again, how many of the REAL "conspiracy theories" have been proven true by the "media"?...
Look at JFK, MLK, RFK. Have any of the major networks exposed the truth concerning those assasinations?
Consider Pearl Harbour, the Federal Reserve, income tax. How many Americans know the TRUTH about those topics?
And look at OKC and TWA800. Do you see any serious investigative reporting going on at CNN?
What if we awake to realize that our government is HIGHLY corrupt and we are all in deep danger and the stability of the country is in question?
What if we are lied to so often that we believe everything is okay to a point when in fact, the government is fooling us in many areas?
Waco.
TWA800
Ruby Ridge
World Trade Center
clintons list of bodies
Ft Marcey Park and Hillary's Boy Friend Vince Foster
The denial of intent to merge the USA with mexico, but policy after policy indicates the opposite.
Are we being lied to on a grand scale?
Hmm...where's the Great Right Wing Conspiracy?
Just remember to forget.
There exists a shadowy Government with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fundraising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of national interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself." Senator Daniel K. Inouye
If Oswald was innocent, why did he shoot Tippit?
For the same reason that the paparrazi killed Lady Di.;)
“Freedom of the Press” not only allows the press to publish what it wishes, it also allows them to NOT publish what they wish.
If we did indeed have a news media controlled by the federal government, how would we know?
Because we would be fed the official government line with every major news story – ala Pravda.
And it wasn't as if the U.S. government didn't believe Jan Senja . . . . . . he worked in a civilain capacity in the Defense Intelligence Agency until his death [1996?]
Your examples show how much work is yet to be done, but it's worthwhile remembering the ones which aren't disputed when shills and willfully blind true believers start throwing the tinfoil around.
How about installing Pinochet in Chile (or was that ever proven)?
I'm not sure. Was the assassination of Allende confirmed/acknowledged?
I'm sure there are many I don't know about which others here do. I'd like to see a comprehensive list of those which have been admitted officially.
"A society whose citizens refuse to see and investigate the facts, who refuse to believe that their Government and their media will routinely lie to them and fabricate a reality contrary to verifiable facts, is a society that chooses and deserves the Police State Dictatorship it's going to get. "
This statement should be repeated every time the paid disinformationists try to ply their trade. I've been saying something of the sort for a long time, but Goddard says it best.
And, of course, we have the recent example of the "misplaced" FBI files, which I think most thinking people agree were actually "withheld" FBI files. This is not conjecture. It's proven. The files were never given over. Your tax dollars at work.
I was the first person to mention General Senja's name in open testimony before a Congressional Committe - in terms of Americans taken to the Soviet Union. There was a brief scurry among Senators and staff, then Senator John Kerry stated that Senja had been checked-out and there was no confidence in his statements. Is was only later that I learned that he had passed polygraph tests on the subject being discussed, and had the full confidence of the Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency.
Our leaders from the Executive Branch, the Legislative Brance and Judicial Branch are committed to the continuing betrayal of American servicemen.
In 1992, when myself and two friends were called to testify before the Senate Seclect Committe on our missing from WWII, Korea and the Cold War; we had no Senator friends except for Smith (NH) and Grassly (IA). The other Senators and the Rand Corp. were adamant that no Americans were taken to the Soviet Union. It is my understanding that Russia has now admitted that the Soviet Union took American captives to the camps in Stalin's Soviet Union. These things, however, aren't considered newsworthy in the United States.
Betrayal of those who serve us is an American way of life, supported by our Government and the media.
Not only Reynolds Wrap references, but I notice they like to make frequent mention of "little green men" and "bigfoot" and other "nut-stories" in hopes of painting them all with the same brush. No one on the bombing threads (to my knowledge) has tried to bring in alien abductions--except, of course, the paid disinformationists, trying for the "guilt by association" effect.
Good grief! $60?? No wonder it's special order--you need an armored car to deliver it! (But please, don't send an AKAL truck!)
For your OKC bombing files!
Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Who leaves Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!
Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs cave fish of their sight?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do! We do!
Gen.3
1.[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
2.[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen.5
1.[5] And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
2.[8] And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
3.[11] And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
4.[14] And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
5.[17] And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
6.[20] And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
7.[27] And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
8.[31] And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
Gen.6
1.[17] And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
thanx for the flag. don't miss this honway.
thanx for the flag. don't miss this honway.
Personally, I hold Goddard in high esteem. He's incredibly responsible in his statements.
Returning to Waco, it is also worth noting that Rogers (FBI) decided against CS in the Ruby Ridge stand-off / murder (fearing it's fatal effects on the baby), but elected to use it in Waco - after the escape tunnel to the underground shelter was blocked. Kinda funny how he forgot between Ruby Ridge & Waco. But, then, he also had Lon Horiuchi covering his 'six' at Waco, as well.
In both Ruby Ridge and Waco, the use of military assets were totally illegal.
Between what's seen among the BATF, FBI & FEMA, I'm at a loss to discover anything less than a play for the Congressional authorization and funding of Gestapo powers. Given the history of the "Gulf of Tonkin Resolution" scam, I think it's naive to believe such agencies wouldn't think they could get away with it. So far, they are correct.
The latest Hanssen spy revelations go a long way to support that also.
The FBI facilitation of the WTC & OKC bombings are otherwise too far off scale. Yet we know that the allegations are as factual as anything which is to be ever believed.
The staggering thought is that the WTC bombing almost succeeded in taking down both buildings. The result would have been the collapse of the entire U.S. economy. How can the FBI find that risk appealing?
The media slam-dunk on the TWA-800 anniversary promised coverage is another New World Order classic example of what Goddard is talking about.
As staggering as the thought is, it appears that the elements loyal to the New World Order have incrementally displaced the traditional American Government and Judicial System.
When you take a close look, except for the approval of funding, Congress doesn't appear to have an ounce of remaining authority - image only.
If the D.C. Council on Human rights bypassing of the U.S. Supreme Court on the Boy Scouts issue isn't an example of things to come, I don't know what is. Morality and patriotism stand in the way of the NWO, that's not acceptable.
This little article seems to give a little glimpse of the way the FBI operates. You have to read into the body of the story (isn't that always the case?) to find the important stuff. Agents allege corruption among senior FBI officials. I left a comment at the end of the thread that lists another tantalizing tidbit, and its source. And I do mean tidbit: they're soft-peddaling this one big time.
Ian Goddard did a very good job here and you did a very good service posting it here.
See http://www.myplanet.net/jeffhead/dadmisc/okcbomb.htm for the Benton K. Partin Brigadier Gen. USAF (Ret.) report on OKC bombing.
The John Birch Society passes this document out like candy.
Bump
IAN: If we define "proven true" as "that which is accepted by the GovtMedia," and thus by the majority of people, I'd be hard-pressed to point to a conspiracy "proven true."
"Proven true" does not mean accepted by the media or a majority of people.
If we define "proven true" as "consistent with facts," then there are many conspiracy theories proven true, such as:
"Proven true" does not mean "consistent with facts". Multiple theories may be consistent with various sets of facts.
Gee, I wonder why he has such a problem with the concept of "proven true".
The shooting of Tippit is itself problematic. The bullets recovered from Tippit's body could not be matched to the Oswald revolver, for example. Aquila Clemmons, one of the eyewitnesses, saw TWO individuals involved, neither of whom resembled Oswald. There is reason to believe that Oswald could not have been in that location to shoot Tippit, as he was seen walking in the opposite direction, and was likely already in the Texas Theater when the shooting of Tippit took place.
ABC News 20/20 had a reporter in the Soviet Union about the time of the speech of Boris Yeltsin before a joint session of Congress, in which Yeltsin declared that Americans had been sent to the Soviet Union from Korea and Vietnam, and had been retained from German POW camps liberated by Soviet forces during World War II. The reporter was shown the graves of such deceased Americans by a Soviet guide. Typically, the Americans were buried along with Soviet personnel, and the presence of the bodies of Americans buried with Soviet personnel was kept in a handwritten ledger showing the places where Americans were buried with individual Soviets.
I thought this whole thing was wrapped up after that, and so wrote to Senator Smith that the "Big MO" was on our side. I was wrong. There are still people who don't believe this happened, either.
"Following World War II, Allied troops were ordered to force back to Soviet controlled territory 2 million former residents of those areas who had escaped westward. There are documented cases of parents killing their own children then committing suicide to avoid the fate they expected at Stalin's hands. This was effectively covered up until the early 80s, though thousands of Americans participated in these forced repatriations."
One of the reasons for "Operation Keelhaul," the operational name for these repatriations, was the vain hope that Stalin would return US POWs that were still in the camps operated by the Germans during the war that were now in Soviet hands. We never got all of those men out after the repatriations in "Operation Keelhaul." Some were lucky enough to have been spotted, shortly after the armistice, when black GIs driving trucks in Soviet occupied territory saw the Americans still behind the wire. The black GIs parked their trucks out of sight of the Soviets, and some of them crept up to the wire with wirecutters. The blacks told the American POWs to cut the wire at sunset, and run for the trucks as soon as the sun started to go down. A few scores of Americans got out when the black truck drivers ran full bore through a couple of road blocks to drive them back to US occupied territory in Germany. This story is recounted in SOLDIERS OF MISFORTUNE, by James Sanders.
and was likely already in the Texas Theater when the shooting of Tippit took place.
Yeah, just taking in a good movie, huh? Nothing else to do at the office that afternoon, so why not take in a good movie, with a gun in his pocket? LOL!
The bullets recovered from Tippit's body could not be matched to the Oswald revolver
The bullets didn’t have much rifling markings on them, because they had been fired from an old type of gun that had been rechambered for larger bullets. In the theater a couple of blocks away, Oswald tried to shoot an officer with an old type of gun that had been rechambered for larger bullets.
Duhhhh.... I wonder who shot Tippit?
Here is a timeline of Oswald's movements according to the witnesses who saw him at about the time of the Tippit shooting:
1:00-1:05 PM: Butch Burroughs, an employee of the Texas Theater, hears someone enter the theater and go up to the balcony without paying.
William Lawrence Smith, a construction worker, sees Oswald walking WEST toward 10th and Patton. The Warren Commission has Oswald walking EAST.
Jimmy Burt and William A. Smith see Oswald walking WEST at the same time the Warren Commission has him walking EAST, the only direction he could have walked in order to shoot Tippit.
Helen Markham leaves the laundromat of her apartment on the corner of 9th and Patton. William Scoggins, a cab driver, is having lunch in his cab about a half- block away. Aquila Clemmons is sitting on the porch of her house.
1:05-1:10PM: Officer J.D. Tippit spots a man walking EAST on 10th Street. Tippit supposedly stops and calls the man over to his car. The man walks over to the car, leans down, and speaks to Tippit through the passenger window. Tippit gets out of his car and walks toward the front of the patrol car, but only gets as far as the left front wheel when shot by the man. Domingo Benavides, Helen Markham, and Aquila Clemmons witness this shooting. It is now at least 1:07PM. When the news is heard at the Texas School Book Depository that an officer has been shot, Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig checks his watch. It is 1:06PM. Aquila Clemmons sees two men at the murder scene. The men exchange hand signals and depart in different directions. Domingo Benavides waits until the murder leaves the scene, and then attempts to use the radio in Tippit's car to call for help.
1:15PM: Butch Burroughs sees Lee Harvey Oswald come down from the balcony of the theater and sells Oswald popcorn. Burroughs watches Oswald walk down the aisle of the main section of the theater. Oswald sits next to Jack Davis during the opening credits of the first feature, then moves to a seat next to another man. Davis then sees Oswald walk to another seat next to a pregnant woman. The pregnant woman then goes to the balcony. There are seven people in the theater on the main level, and Oswald sits next to nearly half of them in a few minutes. This is EIGHT MINUTES after Tippit was shot.
1:16 PM: T.F. Bowley takes the microphone of J.D. Tippit's patrol car from Domingo Benavides and successfully radios the news that Tippit was shot. This is one minute after Butch Burroughs sold popcorn to Oswald after Oswald descended from the theater balcony. Witnesses to the Tippit shooting describe the shooter as weating a white shirt, white jacket, and having dark brown or black hair.
1:51PM: Oswald is arrested in the main section of the Texas Theater. He is wearing a brown shirt, not a white one. Several police officers claim that they heard the "snap" of a revolver trying to fire. A cartridge will later be removed from Oswald's revolver. The cartridge will have a dent in the primer. An FBI report will later declare that THE FIRING PIN ON THE OSWALD REVOLVER WAS BENT. Oswald is led out the front of the theater. Bernard J. Haire will step out in the alley in back of his place of business, Bernie's Hobby House, two doors east of the Texas Theater, and see police bring a man out of the BACK of the theater. The man is struggling with the officers. After listening to the news later, Haire is convinced he saw Oswald being arrested, but later learns Oswald was taken out from the FRONT of the theater.
Here is what we know:
1. Oswald was already in the Texas Theater when Tippit was shot. 2. Oswald was not dressed the way the witnesses saw the killer dressed. 3. Oswald's revolver was rechambered to take .38 special rounds, but firing such rounds from the weapon makes the casings bulge in the middle. The casings in evidence do not have this bulge. 4. The FBI determined that the Oswald revolver had a bent firing pin, so was inoperable. 5. None of the recovered bullets could be matched to the Oswald revolver. 6. No fingerprints were on the revolver. 7. In order for Oswald to walk from his rooming house to 10th and Patton he would have to walk over a mile in about five minutes or less. He would also have to walk EAST, when witnesses have Oswald walking WEST. 8. Tippit was shot between 1:06 PM (Markham and Roger Craig's timings) and 1:10 PM, not at the Warren Commission's 1:16 PM timing. The original Dallas Police logs place the shooting at an earlier time. How Oswald could be shooting Tippit at 10th and Patton, while buying popcorn from Butch Burroughs has never been explained.
9. Helen Markham could not identify Oswald in a line-up until she was run through five attempts during the line-up. Markham finally identifies Oswald. Domingo Benavides never identified Oswald as the shooter, and he was in a better position to see the shooter.
It has not been proven that Oswald shot Tippit that day, either by ballistic evidence, forensic evidence, or by the testimonies of eyewitnesses. Oswald was most likely in the theater at the time of the shooting.
The fact Oswald went to a movie has nothing to do with his guilt or innocence of either of the shootings that day. There were other Book Depository employees not present at the post-assassination roll call, not just Oswald, and other employees attempted to leave but were stopped when the building was finally sealed off by the police.
Also, the officer who originally recovered the casings later could not identify the casings in evidence as the ones he recovered. He had marked them with his initials, but those initials were not present on the casings in evidence, which also do not bear the tell-tale bulge of casings of .38 Special cartridges fired from the Oswald revolver. The original configuration of the Oswald revolver was of a Smith and Wesson "Victory" model.
bttt
Thanks for the flag.
To be brief, if you use the airline disasters as a model, here's the deal -
When you get into just the documentation of the ValuJet-592 and TWA-800 cover-up, you'll see that American Democracy is a Presidential Prerogative, that being a function of a long list of Presidential Executive Orders which empower agencies answerable only to the President; not congress & the courts.
The big ones are EO-12333, EO-12866 and the long list covering the Gestapo powers of FEMA.
That's the story behind the CIA involvement and the FBI cover-up successes.
Vince Foster's demise also suddenly comes into the "Aha!" regime.
Yes, Sports-fans, there is method to their madness!
That's why laws are selectively enforced; next-generation Nazism at it's best.
Looking at what the D.C. Council on Human Rights is pulling on the Boy Scouts - bypassing the U.S. Supreme Court - you can see the arrogance and confidence.
The bad news is that the President is a puppet position for the New World Order.
It's one hell of an education!
In a sentence, if you don't get on the line to your Congressional Representatives, you'd better memorize this phrase, "All Hail! All Hail; the New World Order!
Why not just drop the "theory" and call it what it is. A conspiracy, plain and simple!
You should know by now that I don’t read your posts that contain your own personal “timelines”, if you don’t quote the source of each of your statements. You have a way of being very careless about your sources and your statements.
For example, earlier you said......
”The bullets recovered from Tippit's body could not be matched to the Oswald revolver, for example.”
Well, this was very misleading. This statement makes the average person think “the Tippit bullets didn’t match Oswald’s pistol”, which is not true. You can fool some of the people some of the time.
Great Point!
”The bullets recovered from Tippit's body could not be matched to the Oswald revolver, for example.”
True.
Well, this was very misleading.
How is that?
This statement makes the average person think “the Tippit bullets didn’t match Oswald’s pistol”, which is not true.
Of course this would make people believe that Tippet's gun didn't match and they would be right. They either match or they don't. Obviously they don't.
You can fool some of the people some of the time.
So true and I figure your time is very short. The people are not being fooled by your Propaganda anymore Fred.
CATO
I'll make this simple for you: I don't care.
Ooooo! Captain Cato is on the case!
Have you found the Levy girl yet?
Gee, I wonder why he has such a problem with the concept of "proven true".
I'd be interested to see your definition of the phrase.
Ha! Ha! Ha! Some conspiracy buffs are just bald-faced liars.
House Committee Testimony........
"COINTELPRO -- An FBI "counterintelligence" program operated to eliminate radical political opposition to the established social and political order. Primarily directed at black activists and leaders (from ML King to the Black Panthers) it is today widely acknowledged that the FBI attempted to encourage the suicides of subjects, the assassination of subjects by their own allies, and undertook numerous actions to undermine or destroy legitimate political dissent."
During COINTELPRO, the US Congress found that the FBI routinely lied, cheated, stole, forged documents, engaged in smear campaigns, and ran networks of informants and agents provocateurs across the land.
The forged Black Panther Coloring Book, the planted phony story about Jean Seberg, the planted fake letters (on FBI stationary no less) falsely identifying Raymond Hewit as an FBI informant in the hopes that he would be killed, letters written by the FBI and sent anonymously to political leaders they wanted to intimidate, all were documented by the US Congress as having happened.
"King, look into your heart. You know you are a complete fraud and a great liability to all of us Negroes. White people in thks country have enough frauds of their own but I am sure that they don't have one at this time that is any where near your equal. You are no clergyman and you know it. I repeat you are a colossal fraud and an evil, vicious one at that. ...
King, there is only one thing left for you to do. You know what it is. You have just 34 days in which to do (this exact number has been selected for a specific reason, it has definite practical significant. [sic] You are done. There is but one way out for you. You better take it before your filthy, abnormal fraudulent self is bared to the nation."
- anonymous harassing letter from FBI to Martin Luther King obtained from FBI files using the Freedom Of Information Act
The Congressional investigation into COINTELPRO revealed that in the late sixties and early seventies, more than a thousand political organizations were watchlisted by the FBI. At least 10,000 American homes were burglarized by the FBI in illegal "black bag jobs" for the purpose of political intelligence gathering. In 1971, only 1% of the paper collected by the FBI had anything to do with organized crime. Over 60% of the paper collected by the FBI was devoted to political`monitoring and supression of political activities.
The FBI carried out 500,000 investigations on so-called subversives from 1960 to 1974. Not one of the half million people investigated and harassed was ever convicted of any crime.
All of this information is in the Congressional Record and the Report on the COINTELPRO hearings issued by the US Congress. It's there for anyone to read for themselves.
"We were engaged in COINTELPRO tactics: to divide, conquer, weaken, in diverse ways, an organization. "
-- SAC Cartha D. "Deke" Deloach
"Regardless of the unattractiveness or noisy militancy of some private citizens or organizations, the Constitution does not
permit federal interference with their activities except through the criminal justice system, armed with its ancient
safeguards. There are no exceptions. No federal agency, the CIA, the IRS, or the FBI, can be at the same time policeman,
prosecutor, judge and jury. That is what constitutionally guaranteed due process is all about. It may sometimes be
disorderly and unsatisfactory to some, but it is the essence of freedom ... I suggest that the philosophy supporting
COINTELPRO is the subversive notion that any public official, the President or a policeman, possesses a kind of inherent
power to set aside the Constitution whenever he thinks the public interest, or "national security" warrants it. That notion is
postulate of tyranny. "
-- Congressman Don Edwards 1975
"The inescapable message of much of the material we have covered is that the FBI jeopardizes the whole system of freedom
of expression which is the cornerstone of an open society ... At worst it raises the specter of a police state ... in essence the
FBI conceives of itself as an instrument to prevent radical social change in America ... the Bureau's view of its function
leads it beyond data collection and into political warfare. "
-- Thomas I. Emerson - Yale Law Professor 1971
"Radiation tests -- In the 50's U.S. Army soldiers were marched within miles of aboveground Atomic bomb tests. They were told there would be no adverse effects but -- guess what?"
The only added protection against radiation form the bomb given to the soldiers was a pair of sunglasses, the origin of the "Rayban" trademark.
Wasn't looking for her.
It is a big enough job cleaning up your messes.
BTW, That IS Major CATO to you. At the last Militia meeting I got promoted. The Officer I replaced got promoted to Colonel. You see Freddo the Militia is growing fast. Real fast. Did I tell you we are making lists of traitors?? Don't worry, you didn't make the cut this time. You got my vote though, but many don't see you as a real threat at this time.
Things change,
CATO
"At 1:18, a call came in on the police radio that Dallas Patrolman J.D. Tippit had been shot at Tenth and Patton in the Oak Cliff section of town. Oswald was seen a few minutes later at the Hardy Shoe Store a few blocks away from the Tippit shooting.
If Oswald was innocent, why did he shoot Tippit?"
The only eyewitness to Tippet's shooting saw TWO men, neither of whom looked like Oswald. The empty bullet casings found on the ground where Tippet was shot were not the same ones entered into evidence; the markings made in them by police at the scene had vanished, and in any event, since Oswald had a revolver, there should not have been any casings on the ground in the first place.
BTW, That IS Major CATO to you.
Ok, Major.
Watch out for the NWO!!!
Oh yeah, I really like your *new* idol and official *source* for info - Ian Williams Goddard:
This guy is *real* good representation for you tin-foilers ...PROVEN: CANNABIS IS SAFE MEDICINE
by
Ian Williams GoddardIn reaction to medical cannabis access referendums on the ballots in Arizona and California, former presidents Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, and George Bush signed a letter stating that they categorically oppose access to cannabis for its many proven therapeutic uses such as the prevention of blindness and epileptic seizures [1].Their chief concern was that legal medical access would send the message that cannabis is safe. The presidents can, however, lay their safety concerns to rest because the scientific literature overwhelmingly confirms that cannabis is both an effective and safe medicine.
The Cannabis Safety Profile
The journal PHARMACOLOGICAL REVIEWS [2] reports that decades of research prove that, Compared with legal drugs...marijuana does not pose greater risks. Yet based upon mortality statistics, we can safely conclude that cannabis is one of the safest medical drugs known, for, while prescription drugs, defined as safe by the FDA, kill up to 27,000 and aspirin up to 1,000 Americans per year, cannabis kills 0 per year [3].When we know the facts we can understand why in 1988, after extensive review of the scientific literature, the DEA's own administrative judge Frances Young concluded that Marijuana is one of the safest therapeutically active substances know to man. [4]
Opponents of legal cannabis access would have us believe that there is not enough research available to determine its safety. Nothing could be further from the truth. Cannabis is one of the most thoroughly researched drugs in history, and the evidence gathered over the centuries clearly proves that it is safe:
The Indian Hemp Drugs Commission Report (1894): an exhaustive seven-volume, 3,281-page report that concludes: Moderate [cannabis] use produces practically no ill effects. [5][6][7]
The Panama Canal Military Study (1916-1929), amassing extensive data on the health impact of cannabis smoking upon American soldiers stationed in Panama, recommended that no steps be taken by the Canal Zone authorities to prevent the sale or use of Marihuana.The research also concluded that, here is no evidence that Marihuana...is..habit-forming. [7][8]
Source:
http://www.paston.co.uk/users/webbooks/proven.html
Ian Goddard - nut.
FREE
the sky is open
I am free
the clouds are empty
let them be
FREE
Ian Williams Goddard can be e-mailed at igoddard@mail.erols.com
NWO?? Why should I watch for them? Is there something I should know about them?
I see your buddy _Jim showed up. Do you all party together after your work here??
CATO
From: http://www.webleyweb.com/tletext/libe-030-19970615.txt
THE LIBERTARIAN ENTERPRISE ============================ 15 JUNE 1997"A libertarian is a person who believes that no one has the right, under any circumstances, to initiate force against another human being, or to advocate or delegate its initiation. Those who act consistently with this principle are libertarians, whether they realize it or not. Those who fail to act consistently with it are _not_ libertarians, regardless of what they may claim."
...
I'd also like to thank our other lovely and talented contributors, ... Ian Williams Goddard ... . You're as fine a gaggle of human beings as I could wish for; I'm proud to be associated with every one of you.
Origin of JFK “conspiracy” theories. First published in Moscow, November 23, 1963. This copy of translations from the U.S. Library of Congress.........
Freddy, how can you, of all wannabe people, muster the gall to call somebody else a liar???
How come your copy has wrinkles and all Michael Redvero's documents are clean, neatly pressed and then scanned? (Tongue *firmly* planted in cheek on that question!)
Re: #75: That's poetry? Tell 'im to keep his day job.
RE:#79
Let not the shills get you down SKYDRIFTER. We are winning this although it may not seem that way at times.
Remember that the darkest night comes before the Brightest Dawn and all any Patriot needs do is stay the course and victory is ours. May Liberty once more reign supreme over our nation built upon Christianity and a Constitution that was ordained and graced by a loving God.
Never doubt that God and our faith in our God will carry us through the darkest hours to a victory so sweet we will forget all the travails we must endure.
God Bless Us All in the days ahead,
CATO
Well, _Jim, we just don’t have a budget for a document ironing machine.
Hey, look at this.... Too bad Jimmy Carter stopped this. Now the Reds are all over the place, and we had one in the White House for 8 years........
”During the 1960s, the Federal Bureau of Investigation intensified and coordinated efforts at disrupting revolutionary movements--especially those emerging within the Black Liberation struggle. Over the previous decade they had developed Cointelpro (their Counter Intelligence Program) to pursue political trends the U.S. government considered disloyal.
As political struggle radicalized during the 1960s, the FBI's Cointelpro was greatly expanded and focused on the new radical and revolutionary forces. The FBI established close ties with local "red squads" like Philadelphia's CD Unit.
Frank Donner writes, "The evidence is quite clear that as early as the summer of 1967, the CDU had access to a supply of informers, sponsored and paid for by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. More important, collaboration between the FBI and the Philadelphia police in destructive counterintelligence initiatives against the Philadelphia black activists was used as a model for the bureau's aggressive intelligence program (COINTELPRO) in this sector [aimed at the Black liberation struggle], begun in August 1967 and expanded in February of the next year."”
Logo of the source of the quote, the Revolutionary Communist Party
Shhhh! The NWO is listening. The chips in your hundred dollar bills contain microphones and transmitters.
As far as I can tell no amount of evidence is enough to make any thing proven true to the GHCK's.
In OKC no amount of Eyewitnesses is enough, and with TWA eyewitness is the only thing acceptable.
It causes me to wonder where were these naysayers when Clinton and reno were in charge? And why do they have such selective memory?They can remember three days( that did not happen) of stopping rescue efforts . But they can't remember the muslim baby killed by a mob atack on it's pregnant mother.
I think they are so gone into their lust of conspiracy,That maybe they are the ones who's eyes God has closed.
I’m glad you aren’t a Red, Brother Cato.
Now the Reds are all over the place, and we had one in the White House for 8 years........
Since Xlintoon was never a card carrier I can only assume you are judging Xlintoon by his actions in office.
Why not mention GWB and his continuation of Xlintoon's policy concerning ALL dealings with the PRC and most Socialist countries??
Can't you judge a person by their actions and not what they say they are? GWB's actions speak an entirely different language than his words. SOCIALIST LITE administered by REPOs makes it OK, I guess.
A little like, "Gulags are bad IF Stain is running them but when Krushchev runs them or Yeltsin runs them they are OK and we should have them over here." They make a profit and at the end of the day, what else is there??
CATO
What if I was a Red?? I am not, but what if I was??
Take care Comrade(snicker),
CATO
I first began tracking many of the "Conspiracy Theories" while preparing 5-paragraph orders on OOTW.Here are a few observations.
1) Many of the Conspiracy Theories (CTs for short) were advocated by persons not entirely "in the know".
1a) Many components of CTs are advocated to a point by persons very much "in the know", but unable to clearly portray the entire scenario or opt to discern scenarios as clear conflicts rather than resolving conflicts on the fly.
2) Many of the CTs were remarkably consistant and quite detailed. There IS something to be said for that. Even if not all CTs are true in their conclusions, they are remarkably indicative of systemic trends and potential institutional weaknesses.
3) Many who discount CTs take the approach, "Why should I use a CT as a justification for events, when simple human incompetance just as simply explains aberrant behavior?"
4) In many cases, human error and incompetance, vice, foibles, mistakes, carousing, foolishness, etc. nicely explains many events and sequence of actions, which CTs tend to use as justification of ulterior motives.
5) Some CTs are so bizarre, that even if they are indeed true,...and some I believe are true,....public acceptance of their actual truth is highly questionable.
6) The nature of Judeo-Christian belief is to bring all things to light and resolve conflict respecting the individual and group rights of others. The nature of many New Age faiths and especially Satanism, devil worship, witchcraft, etc, appeals to the occult and gains short term control by manipulative tactics. CTs from within those groups is highly consistant with their foundations and actually lends credance to CTs associated with such groups and beliefs.
7) CTs are confused by honest and dishonest advocates alike who muddy the waters. Equally confusing are those who simply make a few mistakes, although their credibility is then placed in doubt regarding the veracity of their judgment, discernment, and reasoning.
8)CTs also provide incredible insight to potentially criminal activity not yet even planned or initiated. In some cases they might even plant seeds for future CTs to become real, if unopposed impotently.
CTs are an expression for the "fog of war" in information warfare.
For a theory to be "proven true" it would have to directly follow from the evidence, no inferences allowed. Just being a theory that seems to explain the evidence is not enough because there could be a second theory that noone has thought of that would do it as well. But if the evidence leads directly to the theory, without any uncertainty, it could be considered "proven".
Of course this would make people believe that Tippet's gun didn't match and they would be right. They either match or they don't. Obviously they don't.
I know you meant "Oswald's gun". Fred's point was that it would be false to say Oswald's gun didn't match, which you just did. It did match to the extent that any gun did. It coulnd't be matched conclusively with the bullets for the reason he mentioned, not because the bullets didn't come from it. The cartridges were matched to the gun BTW.
"There exists a shadowy Government with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fundraising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of national interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself." Senator Daniel K. Inouye "
My theory is that the Honorable Senator is referring to the Democratic Party in Congress.
Thanks for the bump.
I think he referred to GHWBush, Don Gregg, Ollie North, etc., in their business south of the border
Since Xlintoon was never a card carrier I can only assume you are judging Xlintoon by his actions in office.
Yes, a “fellow traveler”, a “leftist”, a “neo-Marxist”.
Say, how do you know for sure that he wasn’t a “card carrier”??
Why not mention GWB and his continuation of Xlintoon's policy concerning ALL dealings with the PRC and most Socialist countries??
Ha! Ha! Ha! The anti-Red Feds are working “underground” again!!
(Opppps! Me and my big mouth!)
Can't you judge a person by their actions and not what they say they are?
I can’t say any more about this. I’ve already said too much.
Beware of the NWO, and stay away from those hundred-dollar bills.
He actually made the quote recently associated with the Disclosure Project. On Capital Hill, it's probably more identifiable with budgetary associations between big business, covert ops, former government employees working for vested interests and power struggles within.
I find the entire topic to be a good challenge to one's grasp on epistemology and proper discernment.
Only problem is that reality is a bit@h if the CT is true.
But wait a sec,...I thought we were supposed to line our trailers with hundred dollar bills after we coated the inside with tin foil!
Don't tell me those fiber optic strips weren't placed there for a reason!<;^)
HELLO.... HELLO..... TESTING, ONE, TWO, THREE..... FRED SPEAKING INTO HUNDRED DOLLAR BILL.... TRYING TO CONTACT COMRADE CATO. TESTING, TESTING.
---------------
Hey _Jim, the eagle flies at midnight.
Boy, are these conspiracy people bozos!!!
I can't decide which one is the most paranoid.
When I use the term "conspiracy" it is a direct reference (only) to THE grand conspiracy to subvert American soverignty, remove all freedoms, and create a (totalitarian) slave state.
Sir, I recommend to you the Holy Bible which, thus far, has proven itself as a 100% accurate predictor of prophecy. This work (the Bible) demonstrates that there is indeed a 'grand conspiracy' that will ultimately result in the removal of sovereignty, freedoms and create a 'one-world' state.
I will admit we are swollen with pride to assume that it is only the destruction of the United States. It is larger than that.
Kit.
Just to add to the "problems" in the OKC bombing investigation--one of the "missing" laptops is from the OKC office. They're not commenting on whether or not it belonged to one of those investigating the bombing. See Weapons, Laptop Missing From State FBI Office for more.
This article must have hit a few nerves. I see they've sicced the disinfo squad on it! (_Jim, Fred25, mlo, karebare--how are things at the Ministry of Truth?)
Has it occurred to anyone else just how much their tactics resemble what the Commies used to do in Russia?
"Radiation tests -- In the 50's U.S. Army soldiers were marched within miles of aboveground Atomic bomb tests. They were told there would be no adverse effects but -- guess what?"
It's worse even than that. Even before these tests, they had sailors and officers on the decks of Navy ships to "observe" nuclear tests on Pacific islands. I know. My dad was one of them. The effects were as you'd guess.
And cannibis (did I spell that right?) is worse than prozac? I doubt it.
It would be lovely if none of us ever needed a single solitary drug, if we could all somehow be so healthy we'd put the pharmacies and doctors out of business. But since that's not the case, there's quite a long list of drugs that are dangerous when misused--a lot of them far, far more dangerous than pot. Like, let's say, opiates used for pain killing, prozac, and thalidamide--remember all the deformed babies born to mothers taking that drug? I read somewhere that it's legal again.
I'm against making pot legal for any use, but for prescriptions--certainly it's no worse, and probably less so, than many of the drugs currently being prescribed.
And let's not even get into over-the-counter stuff you can find at any Walmart. Many of the so-called "diet pills" and cold capsules, for instance, can cause heart attacks or even strokes in some people. Some nasal sprays (Afrin, etc.) can be physically addictive if used longer than three days--yet all of this stuff (and lots more) is still on the shelves. No prescription. Just walk in and buy all you want.
We could control who uses marijuana, and how much, and when, via the doctors and prescription system we use with all other prescribed drugs. Prescribing it would be no worse than prescribing demerol, and they prescribe that all the time for pain. I'm not in favor of letting it loose on society, but I don't see the harm in allowing it for those who can be helped by it--medically, before anyone chimes in saying "oh, wow, man, I could use the help!"
This article must have hit a few nerves. I see they've sicced the disinfo squad on it! (_Jim, Fred25, mlo, karebare--how are things at the Ministry of Truth?) ---{you forgot shooter2.5}--
Has it occurred to anyone else just how much their tactics resemble what the Commies used to do in Russia?
=====================================
How could we? Freddies favorite rant is how all the commies here at FR are duped by the agit-prop of the REAL commies. - [He learned their tactics in SF, as a flower child] - Just ask, - fRED and his boyos know it all.
" Do you all party together after your work here?? "
I think they all party together while they work here. They certainly seem to show up together, don't they?
"How come your copy has wrinkles and all Michael Redvero's documents are clean, neatly pressed and then scanned? "
1. Because all of Fred's are decades old, and produced via old technology--typewritten (they used typewriters in those days, not word processors) and then mimeographed and/or photocopied. The resulting paper copies were stored and frequently were wrinkled, stained and otherwise damaged through time and age.
2. Although some people have not yet awakened to the fact that times are different, today most documents originate from a word processor and are run off on a printer that has few if any distinguishing marks, unlike the typewriters of old. Some are not even photocopied, but stored as pdf files. Many of the documents posted on Rivero's site originated in the same office, and would have been printed on the same printer in any event.
3. And most important, #1 and #2 don't even matter, because these documents have been independently verified as valid--twice.
You guys are scraping the bottom of the barrel here, making claims that have already been disproven (over and over and over and over and...). This story must really bother someone, to send the disinfo squad out in full force like this.
"Re: #75: That's poetry? Tell 'im to keep his day job."
I'm not a poetry expert. Personally, I didn't see much in his poem. But as an investigative reporter, he sure has Fred25 beat all to heck. But then, we all know that was just a cover for him, don't we? (Investigative hobby magazine writer and one-time teevee cameraman/gofer is more like it.)
"Well, _Jim, we just don’t have a budget for a document ironing machine."
No, but you sure seem to have a place in the budget for document faking, don't you? Funny how all of the documents Rivero has posted have turned out to be valid--and you are the only one who has been shown to fake documents.
"In OKC no amount of Eyewitnesses is enough..."
Careful, your ignorance is showing. One of the issues we keep bringing forward is the one of the eyewitnesses, a huge number of which reported seeing other John Does, other bombs in the building, and many other factors that would leave the "official version" in tatters.
Oh, you didn't mean those eyewitnesses, I guess? Just the ones that agree with the official version?
re: your #25
"Conspiracy" has been given, and has received, such a negative connotation by respectively, the fedgov/media, and the sheeple.
A modest suggestion....I admit to plagarizing Chuck Harder. As for me, it is more than a semantic issue, I think it is accurate. Call it a "consensus". i.e. Like people, of like minds, with the capability of making major changes in the political/economic/social structure of the planet. Ain't no conspiracy......just business.
Best Regards, and take care
J.R.
I agree with you to a point. MOST of these things can also be explained with simple incompetence. The WTC story was just run on Court TV, or some other channel like it, and the FBI supervisor in the story (true?) came off like a complete moron....
A refresher for that little story:
Not for commercial use. Solely to be used for the educational purposes of research and open discussion.
|
The account, which is given in the transcript of hundreds of hours of tape
recordings Mr. Salem secretly made of his talks with law-enforcement agents,
portrays the authorities as in a far better position than previously known to
foil the Feb. 26 bombing of New York City's tallest towers. The explosion left
six people dead, more than 1,000 injured and damages in excess of half a billion
dollars. Four men are now on trial in Manhattan Federal Court in that attack.
Mr. Salem, a 43-year-old former Egyptian army officer, was used by the
Government to penetrate a circle of Muslim extremists now charged in two bombing
cases: the World Trade Center attack and a foiled plot to destroy the United
Nations, the Hudson River tunnels and other New York City landmarks. He is the
crucial witness in the second bombing case, but his work for the Government was
erratic, and for months before the trade center blast, he was feuding with the
F.B.I.
Supervisor 'Messed It Up'
After the bombing, he resumed his undercover work. In an undated transcript
of a conversation from that period, Mr. Salem recounts a talk he had had earlier
with an agent about an unnamed F.B.I. supervisor who, he said, "came and messed
it up."
"He requested to meet me in the hotel," Mr. Salem says of the supervisor. "He
requested to make me to testify and if he didn't push for that, we'll be going
building the bomb with a phony powder and grabbing the people who was involved
in it. But since you, we didn't do that."
The transcript quotes Mr. Salem as saying that he wanted to complain to
F.B.I. headquarters in Washington about the bureau's failure to stop the
bombing, but was dissuaded by an agent identified as John Anticev.
"He said, I don't think that the New York people would like the things out of
the New York office to go to Washington, D.C.," Mr. Salem said Mr. Anticev had
told him.
Another agent, identified as Nancy Floyd, does not dispute Mr. Salem's
account, but rather, appears to agree with it, saying of the New York people:
"Well, of course not, because they don't want to get their butts chewed."
Mary Jo White, who, as the United States Attorney for the Southern District
of New York is prosecuting defendants in two related bombing cases, declined
yesterday to comment on the Salem allegations or any other aspect of the cases.
An investigator close to the case who refused to be identified further said, "We
wish he would have saved the world," but called Mr. Salem's claims "figments of
his imagination."
The transcripts, which are stamped "draft" and compiled from 70 tapes
recorded secretly during the last two years by Mr. Salem, were turned over to
defense lawyers in the second bombing case by the Government on Tuesday under a
judge's order barring lawyers from disseminating them. A large portion of the
material was made available to The New York Times.
In a letter to Federal Judge Michael B. Mukasey, Andrew C. McCarthy, an
assistant United States attorney, said that he had learned of the tapes while
debriefing Mr. Salem and that the informer had then voluntarily turned them
over. Other Salem tapes and transcripts were being withheld pending Government
review, of "security and other issues," Mr. McCarthy said.
William M. Kunstler, a defense lawyer in the case, accused the Government
this week of improper delay in handing over all the material. The transcripts he
had seen, he said, "were filled with all sorts of Government misconduct." But
citing the judge's order, he said he could not provide any details.
|
The transcripts do not make clear the extent to which Federal authorities
knew that there was a plan to bomb the World Trade Center, merely that they knew
that a bombing of some sort was being discussed. But Mr. Salem's evident anguish
at not being able to thwart the trade center blast is a recurrent theme in the
transcripts. In one of the first numbered tapes, Mr. Salem is quoted as telling
agent Floyd: "Since the bomb went off I feel terrible. I feel bad. I feel here
is people who don't listen."
Ms. Floyd seems to commiserate, saying, "hey, I mean it wasn't like you didn't try and I didn't try." In an apparent reference to Mr. Salem's complaints about the supervisor, Agent Floyd adds, "You can't force people to do the right thing." The investigator involved in the case who would not be quoted by name said that Mr. Salem may have been led to believe by the agents that they were blameless for any mistakes. It was a classic agent's tactic, he said, to "blame the boss for all that's bad and take credit for all the good things." In another point in the transcripts, Mr. Salem recounts a conversation he said he had with Mr. Anticev, saying, "I said, 'Guys, now you saw this bomb went off and you both know that we could avoid that.' " At another point, Mr. Salem says, "You get paid, guys, to prevent problems like this from happening." Mr. Salem talks of the plan to substitute harmless powder for explosives during another conversation with agent Floyd. In that conversation, he recalls a previous discussion with Mr. Anticev. "Do you deny," Mr. Salem says he told the other agent, "your supervisor is the main reason of bombing the World Trade Center?" Mr. Salem said Mr. Anticev did not deny it. "We was handling the case perfectly well until the supervisor came and messed it up, upside down." The transcripts reflect an effort to keep Mr. Salem as an intelligence asset who would not have to go public or testify. A police detective working with the F.B.I., Louis Napoli, assures Mr. Salem in one conversation, "We can give you total immunity towards prosecution, towards, ah, ah, testifying." But he adds: "I still have to tell you that if you're the only game in town in regards to the information," then, he says, "you'll have to testify." Studied for Signs of Illegality The transcripts are being closely studied by lawyers looking for signs that Mr. Salem and the law enforcement officials, in their zeal to gather evidence, may have crossed the legal line into entrapment, a charge that defense counsel have already raised. But the transcripts show that the officials were concerned that by associating with bombing defendants awaiting trial in the Metropolitan Correctional Center, Mr. Salem might have been accused of spying on the defense. In an undated conversation, Mr. Anticev tries to explain the perils. "We're not allowed to have any information regarding that," he tells Mr. Salem. "That could jeopardize, you know, if you go see a lawyer, ah, you know, with the defendant's friend or whatever like that, and you're talking about things we're not suppose to, ah, condone that. We're not supposed to make people do that for us. That's like sacred ground. You can't be privileged, ah, you can't know what's being talked about at all." Mr. Salem seems to bridle. "I, I, I don't think that's right," he says. The agent insists: "Yeah, but that's just a guideline. If that ever happened, ah, you can back and reported on the meeting between, ah, you know, Kunstler and Mohammad A. Elgabrown. Forget about it. I mean a lot of people ah the case can get thrown out. You understand?" The references were to the defense lawyer, Mr. Kunstler, and his client in the second bomb case, Ibrahim A. Elgabrowny. Mr. Salem seems to reluctantly agree. "They want you to have a hand in it," Mr. Anticev goes on, "but they're afraid that when you get that kind of, ah, too deep, like me, it's almost like, especially with all this legal stuff going on right now." If it were just intelligence gathering, the agent says, "You can do anything you want. You could go crazy over there and have a good time. Do you know what I mean?" The agent goes on: "But now that everything is going to court and there is legal stuff and it's just, it's just too hard. It's just too tricky, if, this, you know. And then there's the fact if you come by with the big information, he did this, ah, let me talk about this with the other people again." "O.K.," Mr. Salem says. "All right. O.K." CORRECTION-DATE: October 29, 1993, Friday CORRECTION: An article yesterday about accounts of a plot to build a bomb that was eventually exploded at the World Trade Center referred imprecisely in some copies to what Federal officials knew about the plan before the blast. Transcripts of tapes made secretly by an informant, Emad A. Salem, quote him as saying he warned the Government that a bomb was being built. But the transcripts do not make clear the extent to which the Federal authorities knew that the target was the World Trade Center. |
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Some of this might be of interest to you folks.
re#113
Thanks great info. It would ssme that the supervisor was correctly protrayed in the movie!
Actually, Bible prophecy says that America will be burned to a cinder, so much so, that no one will ever go there again.
>Actually, Bible prophecy says that America will be burned
>to a cinder, so much so, that no one will ever go there
>again.
Scriptures please:
Book Chapter: Verse
Internet Resources on the Tuskeegee Study
"Freddy, how can you, of all wannabe people, muster the gall to call somebody else a liar???"
Don't take it personally: it's his job. In his line of work, there's no need for truth, and they certainly have no time for actual facts. It's all about propaganda, and getting the latest word out from the Ministry of Truth. (Anyone read 1984 lately?)
This story must really bother someone, to send the disinfo squad out in full force like this.'Certified' docs that only go to prove some non-essential aspect of something still makes those original docs "non-essential" ...
But, let me get this straight - these 'docs' (documents), out of the blue just suddenly "dropped" in someone's hands ... it seems to me that MOST of these 'docs' first apeared in that hornet's nest of conspiracy theory, that glorious house organ of the John Birch Society, that tabloid called The New American.
Which reminds, I've got to call them and ask if they mind copy-righted material being posted all over the internet ... you KNOW those docs appeared in their mag some years back now ...
The QUESTION still stands - why are Redvero's docs so clean - not even a crease showing THEY WERE ONCE IN AN ENVELOPE and mailed to somebody ... I think that Redvero (or somebody) "re-created" those docs. As it is, I don't RECALL seeing any signatures on his 'docs', so that makes them re-creations and NOT even "copies" of the originals.
You don't find that the least bit curious?
I guess not ...
Which one? North or South?
and you are the only one who has been shown to fake documents.PROVE that one. I dare ya ...
... or you're the one that is a liar ...
Theorizing about the existence of a criminal conspiracy involving government-sanctioned actors is considerably different in many ways than attempting to construct a scientific theory.
The most important is that in political matters perception is more significant to future events/conduct/political impact than is reality. "Proven true" relating to issues of government corruption or worse has come to mean for many that authorized spokesmen for the government have conceded that it is true.
The thing about how many people believe it or know it has of course nothing to do with whether it is true, but when it is true, even the fact it has been "proven" (admitted) is often irrelevant unless large numbers of citizens know it, believe it, and allow their future decisions to be affected by that knowledge/belief.
BTW, if your standard for proving a government-involved conspiracy is "no uncertainty" it's real easy for you to take the position that none has ever been proven.
Even when "the government" admits almost all relevant facts there will always remain a degree of uncertainty.
The standard for "proven true" in political matters should be whether an impartial jury of 12 citizens would unanimously conclude that the most relevant allegations are true beyond a reasonable doubt.
The "no uncertainty" standard is just the standard a corrupt government would want people to accept.
Sir, I recommend to you the Holy Bible which, thus far, has proven itself as a 100% accurate predictor of prophecy.?
Can you prove that? No.
This work (the Bible) demonstrates that there is indeed a 'grand conspiracy' that will ultimately result in the removal of sovereignty, freedoms and create a 'one-world' state.
So it's inevitable then, right? Might as well surrender, right? Might as well just kick back as there's nothing that can be done, right?
Are you familiar with how the Aztecs were conquered by any chance?
I'm against making pot legal for any use, but for prescriptions--certainly it's no worse, and probably less so, than many of the drugs currently being prescribed.
(I would've quoted more, but the above will suffice.)
But you see pot grows without any man-made help. It's a weed. A seed falls and it grows the pot plant naturally. Yes, it's a drug BUT it's a drug that doesn't need help to become a drug. It's a nutural drug. In other words, God made a natural drug for some reason. (Why? That's another subject.) It can be smoked (fire is natural and causes smoke -- people get high from inhaling the smoke), and it can be injested (it's natural for Mankind to eat.)
In other words, the pharmaceutical industry has no place in marijuana distribution. It doesn't pass out dandelions does it? Dandelions grow the same as pot. They're both naturally growing weeds. To outlaw pot is stupid and very unnatural. To outlaw pot is to outlaw naturally growing weeds, and it makes no sense. Poison Ivy is a naturally growing "problem" plant also, but is it to be outlawed?
This "fury" against marajuana is just stupid on its face. It's a weed. The government has outlawed a naturally growing weed, and it's just flat outright stupid.
You're calling me a liar? That's rich, coming from you.
First source, posted on 06/18/2001 14:54:20 PDT by rwfromkansas :
I have just got off the phone with a nice lady at Charles Key's office. I called to ask if she had information about Rivero's bombing documents. Now, it should be noted that I did not read these documents off to her, seeing if every single word is correct. However, I did mention to her names listed as receipients etc., name of notary public, those swearing the affidavit, etc. and occasionally, the main points of the document. I talked kind of fast when I first identified myself (I have a nasty habit of starting off on the phone too fast....it annoys me as much as the ones I have to talk to, though luckily I do slow it down pretty quickly...lol). It should be noted I did not contact any recipients (such as in the DOD memo or Fema sit-rep). This was just a quick check and I assumed that Key's office would have done the tougher checking such as the recipients. Anyway, here are the results of this quick little investigation:Tiffany Bible affidavit: real
Arlene Blanchard Press Release: real
DoD Atlantic Command Memo: real
FEMA Situation Report (No. 5): She was unsure if it was this same sit-rep, but she does know they included one in the Final Report, which is due out in about 2 weeks, due to computer problems (they had to reformat everything they had due to the computer going haywire). She stated that the one she was thinking of is a re-hash of the Command Memo about finding other devices in the OKC Federal Building, which is accurate and lends probability to Rivero's being the same Sit-rep as she was thinking of.
U.S. Forces Command Daily Log: real, and again, she stated it is basically a re-hash of finding other devices in the building.
Joe Harp affidavit: real
Jane Graham Statement: real
Oklahoma Highway Patrol Radio Logs: real
Virgil Steele Affidavit: real
Jim Grace, the notary public mentioned on several of the documents, is also an investigator for the OKBIC. The woman at OKBIC also let me know about a document they are including in the final report which orders the ceasing of any serious search for the John Does. It should be interesting to see that in the final report to see if it really means that or not.
Posted here
Second source, reposting Roughrider's investigation:
Lots of folks have mentioned Roughrider's post that was removed. Someone saved portions of it before it got the axe. Here they are, and hey dashJim, now they're verified twice!06/13/2001 16:05:32 PDT by roughrider
The following investigation was conducted at 11:00 AM this morning. I obtained the following information:
The FEMA Regional Office that is responsible for the Oklahoma City area was telephoned. The woman who answered provided the following information:
There is no one in DELL GREER's former office, as there are two disasters to which the FEMA Regional Office was responding on 6/13/2001, one in Southern Louisiana and one in Texas. DELL GREER has not worked for FEMA in some years. GREER did work in that office for FEMA at the time of the Oklahoma City bombing. The name RICHARD W. KRIMM was familiar to the woman, but KRIMM also no longer works for FEMA. FEMA employs "media monitors" in their regional offices. The media monitors watch television coverage of disasters to which FEMA is responding. The purpose of the media monitors is to ascertain if the media coverage is accurate, so that FEMA can issue press releases if any inaccurate information is broadcast. FEMA officials like DELL GREER would not put reports from "media sources" in a press release, but might put them in internal communications such as a Situation Report. FEMA is not responsible for investigations of such criminal matters as the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. FEMA is tasked with providing personnel, material, and other assistance for search, rescue, and disaster relief and recovery. This being the case, until the responsible law enforcement agencies disseminate information to FEMA, FEMA must learn what is happening through monitoring the news media. FEMA does receive information from the wire services. She concurred that FEMA is not responsible for informing the public what caused the explosion at the Alfred P. Murrah Building, and that the described content of the FEMA Situation Report Number 5, written by DELL GREER to RICHARD W. KRIMM is only descriptive of the media reports to which GREER had access at that time. Other situation reports subsequent to Number 5 might have been changed to reflect the change in the media reports from two unexploded bombs to no unexploded bombs. The time 2100L on the Situation Report Number 5 is military time and reflects that the document was written on 4/20/2001 at 9:00 PM. She suggested that the FEMA web site might reveal more. She asked how a FEMA internal document found its way to the Internet, and I responded that I did not know, but it was my understanding that several FEMA documents concerning the bombing have been made public, and there was no classification stamp on the copy I saw on the Internet.
Unless anyone is still not satisfied, I am closing down the investigation. The references in the FEMA and DOD documents came from the same media reports that indicated two unexploded bombs were removed from the Murrah Building, and it is my conclusion that this explains the similarity in wording. Both FEMA and DOD Atlantic Command were only interested in disaster relief and recovery efforts and were not responsible for investigating the bombing, therefore they were relying on extant media reports to inform superiors. It is reasonable to conclude that, as the media reports changed, additional communications were disseminated by both agencies to update their respective management teams about the changing situation. The documents only serve as proof that the media did indeed report that unexploded bombs were removed, not that FEMA employees saw them.
FEMA has its hands full right now, helping out people in two states. I don't want to bother them anymore. This should clarify things sufficiently enough for all concerned.1 Posted on 06/13/2001 16:05:32 PDT by roughrider
Same source as above, post #56.
Third source, reposting the BlueDogDemo's investigations:
Of the portions saved, here's the part you wrote:
To: roughrider
As for my small portion of the research, I spoke with Sheryl in the PIO office, LTC Paul Scully, Oklahoma Military Headquarters, Oklahoma City about the photo of Camp Gruber in question---her comments reflected that other agencies did use the Gruber for training--I found though other sources, then websites, that DARPA, is the Defense Advance Research Projects Agency--which during the time in question was conducting research on high risk projects and technology which could be used to supplement communication, and technical aid for the United States military---I was to receive a call from LTC Scully himself, but as of this date, that call has not been received---I contacted various news officials in the Ft. Gibson, Muskogee Oklahoma area, to ascertain the validity of the photo's in question, all knew of the photo's, but noone could give a name or address for the pilot that allegedly took the photo's---I have placed inquiries in the small town of Ft. Gibson, that I would like to meet for coffee and discussion, if anyone knew of this individual--but as of yet, have received no response---I will post if the meeting is set up.
I have rechecked my associates with KFOR, to reaffirm that they do not hold, nor have they ever held any tapes, security camera video's, etc from the Oklahoma City bombing, all inquiries have meet with negative answers.
I have spoken to various federal law enforcement officials in Oklahoma City, Training cadres of the State of Oklahoma, and no infomation other than that all ready known is present----
From information gained on tag numbers on another thread, I have started inquiries as to the make and models of these vehicles, but I would warn all freepers that any odd verification on EPIC, NLETS, or OLETS will generate flags, and will be investigated, as these archived memo's, and all inquiries are monitored as too operation terminal, operator, department, and time/date, etc.
Regards,
Stmoritz
5 Posted on 06/13/2001 16:27:39 PDT by BlueDogDemo (*)
Same source as above, post #60. All of these people are Freepers, and can be freepmailed if you question the accuracy of what I posted here.
As to Fred25's faked documents, he's admitted he faked them. One can be found here, to which Michael Rivero responds (in part) in post #82:
You forge a document, then use your crime to "prove" someone else is a criminal. That fits with the FBI's tactics during COINTELPRO. Commit a crime, blame someone else.
Fred25 also posted some faked pictures of the famous truck photo. The truck photo posted by Rivero and others, was also found to be valid and originally published in the Washington Post. Fred25 mentioned a number of excuses for this bizarre behavior, including that "if he could fake these, anyone could", but the fact remains: Fred25 is the only one here proven to have faked documents. And that's the sorry truth of it.
It has not been proven that Oswald shot Tippit that day, either by ballistic evidence, forensic evidence, or by the testimonies of eyewitnesses. Oswald was most likely in the theater at the time of the shooting.
But just like the shills at CNN, there will be those here who will ignore the facts and parrot the "official" line. Facts to these people are merely minor obstacles, as this is a "conspiracy theory", and anyone who speaks of those facts are "conspiracy theorists".
See what I mean ,You only use what you personally see as useful. I never said I only believe what has been put out. I have enough sense to not believe every thing I'm told. I've talked to people who were there,and people who were there when the building was built. And if you were to put aside what you've been led to believe happened,you would see that the Murrah was a pretty building. But the construction went through the same political process that you so dispise. Money had to go into politicians pockets to get the building built . When you have middle men the materials suffer. All the comparative bombings where pictures are posted have nothing in common with the Murrah.(besides bieng bombed buildings.)Not architecture. Not design. Not builders. Not even the same materials, because of the country of material origin.
I could introduce you to people ,who are only normal people like you and I .And they went through this .Many are at my Church,this probably surprises you that a sinner such as myself goes to Church.I wish you would discuss your beliefs with some people from around here.
There are some bad Government people,but it is not the huge conspiracy being made out.If you ask around it is easy to find people who can tell you what really happened.
And, of course, we have the recent example of the "misplaced" FBI files, which I think most thinking people agree were actually "withheld" FBI files. This is not conjecture. It's proven. The files were never given over. Your tax dollars at work.
And we also have the "misplaced" evidence in the TWA800 case..
From Commander Donaldson's Letter to the Director of the FBI:
Mr. Freeh I am keenly aware of the justice departments suppression of the EGIS 3000 high explosion residue evidence gathered by BATF. Having consulted with both the equipment manufacturer and independent high explosive experts the picture is clear.
The EGIS 3000 equipment used on recovered debris is allegedly the most sensitive in the world.The BATF operators of the equipment are allegedly the best qualified anywhere in the world.
The nitrogen compounds in PETN and other explosive residues that the machine documents are very soluble in seawater.
Despite the fact explosive experts have told me they would expect even massive contamination of debris by high explosive residue to wash off of aluminum debris in a few weeks of salt water immersion the EGIS 3000 justified its expense by scoring a dozen or more hits of residue on both internal and external structure.
Confirmation of EGIS 3000 "hits" by the FBI laboratory would by definition have to be made with less sensitive (inferior methodology because checking an EGIS 3000 with another EGIS 3000 would violate normal scientific protocol.
A perplexing decision was made to pressure wash debris brought ashore prior to examination. It washes away both DNA and chemical residue evidence.
A political decision was made to change the navy divers mission from debris recovery to primarily victim recovery, which increased critical salt water emersion time for explosive residue evidence.
A political decision was made to categorize at least 10 valid EGIS 3000 hits as false positives based on inferior FBI lab methodology!
A political decision was made to categorize the two hits that were confirmed by the FBI lab as contamination from a drug dog training event staged aboard the aircraft months earlier, therefore somehow demeaning EGIS 3000 hits?
By confirming the two EGIS hits from porous material from inside the cabin that would be expected to retain higher levels of residue for longer periods then would contaminated aluminum thorough testing by inferior FBI methodology, the more sensitive EGIS 3000 was in fact proven to be operating normally.
Mr. Freeh, as an experienced open ocean scuba diver and retired naval officer, I find the political decision to deliberately expose the navy divers to higher risks by changing their mission to; primarily seeking out then untangling human remains from extremely hazardous wreckage versus the safer more professional previous mission of recovery of debris and collateral recovery of bodies to be questionable. I would also suggest there is an appearance of reckless endangerment in furtherance of conspiracy to obstruct justice by your New York office.
The Autopsy Evidence
The medical examiners universal cause of death of FL800's crew and passengers was cranium/ cervical spine separation due to ligament failure. In layman's terms, fatal whiplash. These injures are totally consistent with a massive blow left side forward fuselage, forward fuselage failure, violent pitch up and the violent deceleration associated with the actual sequence of events.
These injuries are not at all consistent with your contract cartoon, any yaw, pitch or angular deceleration force strong enough to break everyone's neck would have immediately flamed out all four engines. These huge turbo fans are sensitive to abrupt changes of angle of attack (the angle the slipstream strikes the first stage of compressor and stator blades at the engine front).
Row 19 seats and victims left the aircraft instantly virtually with the part enclosing the R2 door and were found in the very early debris field. Their injuries being consistent with the other passengers prove the universal fatal event was prior to or coincidental to first loss of airframe integrity,
X-ray examination of remains showed extensive small metal fragment contamination throughout the victims bodies. When the medical examiner pointed out a deep chest penetration by metal fragment of a first class passenger, your investigators told him it wasn't evidence because the fragment came from an aircraft part. End of subject! Frankly, I've seen better police work in Pink Panther movies. Could it possibly be the same force that shattered the nose and drove tons of debris well right of aircraft track broke off and propelled this non-evidence fragment into the victim?
TWA FLIGHT 800 ANALYSTS SAY FBI IS INTENTIONALLY OBSTRUCTING JUSTICE
And, of course, we have the recent example of the "misplaced" FBI files, which I think most thinking people agree were actually "withheld" FBI files. This is not conjecture. It's proven. The files were never given over. Your tax dollars at work.
Even MORE INTERESTING facts surrounding TWA800 from the following Ian Goddard articles:
The Crash of TWA Flight 800 - Part I
The Crash of TWA Flight 800 - Part II
The Crash of TWA Flight 800 - Part III
Evidence of Evidence Tampering
Conclusions derived from physical evidence are only as reliable as the integrity and preservation of that evidence. Because parties to the official Flight 800 investigation have reported that physical evidence has been altered, destroyed, and disappeared, the official conclusions about the physical evidence are questionable.
Senior NTSB official Hank Hughes testified before a Senate Committee about the disappearance and destruction of Flight 800 evidence. [9] He testified that FBI agents would remove physical evidence from the Calverton hangar without proper notification (other insiders have reported the same). Hughes testified that in one case FBI agents were caught sneaking into the hangar at 3 am on a Saturday morning. Hughes also testified that
"an agent from the FBI was brought in from Los Angeles... [he] had some experience in bomb investigations, and I saw him in the middle of the hangar with a hammer in the process of trying to flatten a piece of wreckage. In investigative work, you do not alter evidence. You take it in its original state and preserve it. But I actually saw this man with a hammer, pounding on a piece of evidence, trying to flatten it out." [10]
Hughes testified further that "contrary to universally accepted forensic procedure" [11] all clothing from Flight 800 passengers -- which could contain traces of explosives -- was co-mingled and stored wet, which allowed mold to grow on the clothes. According to Hughes this "destroyed" any evidentiary value the clothing could have provided. [12] Hughes described the standard protocol for handling clothing as follows:
"Stated procedure for any clothing in a crime scene or other accident site -- and the procedures are basically the same, there is no difference between a crime scene and an accident scene investigation in terms of the handling of evidence -- but wet clothing, whether it is wet by chemicals, body chemicals, blood, or water, salt water in this case, the proper procedure is to air dry the clothing, wrap it in clean butcher paper after it has been photographed, catalog it, and put it away for safekeeping." [12]
Hughes also discovered that seat cushions and seats from Flight 800 that disappeared from the hangar had been dumped in a dumpster. [12] Investigative journalist James Sanders had acquired two tiny samples of Flight 800 seat cushioning from the Calverton hangar that was covered with a red residue containing high concentrations of elements found in missile fuels and explosives. [13] Shortly after Sanders published his findings the cushioning from the residue-covered seats was stripped off the seats and removed from the hangar. [14] Could that residue-covered seat cushioning that disappeared be the same seat cushioning Hughes discovered in a dumpster?
In his testimony before the Senate, Hank Hughes listed many other alarming instances that seriously compromise the reliability of the official Flight 800 investigation. [11]
More Evidence of Tampering
Linda Kuntz, a TWA employee and former party to the official investigation, observed what she believed to be evidence that NTSB officials were altering data to make it appear that seats from the rear of the plane found in the western debris field were instead found further to the east. Linda Kuntz called on the assistance of two New York Police Officers who photographed the evidence in question. They then informed TWA attorneys, who informed the NTSB. The NTSB then contacted the FBI in order to have Kuntz investigated for taking photographs in violation of regulations. Kuntz was then dismissed from the investigation and threatened with indictment and prosecution. [15]
Major Frederick Meyer, a New York Air National Guard pilot, was assigned to transport a piece of Flight 800 wreckage from the Calverton hangar to FBI headquarters in Washington, DC. About this special piece of wreakage, Meyer told the Village Voice:
"I knew from looking at it that it was the leading edge of some aerofoil -- horizontal stabilizer, rudder, or wing -- and it had punctures in it. We're talking about a piece of aluminum alloy that is very strong and rigid. In this were dimples with holes in the center of the dimple, like something was driven through with incredible force." [16]
Meyer said the holes "were about 3/4 of an inch to one inch in diameter." [17] When I asked him if the punctures appeared to come from the outside, he replied: "The dimples around each hole indicate that something passed through from the outside to the inside." [18] Penetration from the outside to the inside would be consistent with an external explosion, such as the explosion a proximity-fused missile warhead would deliver.
Unfortunately the whereabouts of that important evidence is unknown. Robert Davey, a Village Voice reporter, tried to tack it down without success. As he reported in the Village Voice, FBI spokesman Joe Valiquette "says the FBI returned the wing with the suspicious holes in it to the NTSB investigation in Calverton... However, NTSB director Goelz says he is not aware of any piece from a wing edge with holes in it." [16] Perhaps it slipped into a black hole.
Speaking of black holes, the New York Times reported: "Certain federal agents, calling the FBI's laboratory in Washington a 'black hole,' remained convinced that the bureau was hiding its positive lab confirmations." [19] This was after investigators at Calverton kept sending debris with traces of explosives to FBI headquarters only to have the FBI consistently declare those traces to have been false positives, even though investigators at Calverton were using the highly sensitive and accurate EGIS detection system. [20]
Evidence of evidence tampering in the official Flight 800 investigation keeps coming in. Just last August (2000) Agence France Presse reported that Glen Schulze, a flight data recorder (FDR) expert, [21] determined that the last four seconds of FDR data had been tabulated but was removed from the data before it was released to the public. [22] The last seconds of FDR data are the most important evidence for diagnosing the cause of a crash. Schultze recently published his analysis of the FDR data. [23]
Additionally, the Flight 800 Independent Researchers Organization (FIRO) has filed a lawsuit against the FBI for its failure to release data in compliance with the Freedom of Information Act. [24] The data in question pertains to shrapnel recovered from bodies. The chief medical examiner for the crash, Charles Wetli, had stated that "virtually all of the bodies had shrapnel" and that "FBI agents were here and standing with us while we were doing the autopsies and taking the shrapnel that we found." [25] What became of that critical evidence? Obviously someone at the FBI knows, but it seems they don't want us to know. FIRO is also suing the NTSB for its refusal to release radar data. [26]
In Conclusion
Even if all the examples cited above, and others not cited here, were not deliberate acts of evidence tampering, it would still not be reasonable to conclude that the physical evidence refutes eyewitness accounts of a missile engagement when so much of it has been damaged, destroyed, disappeared, withheld, or remains unrecovered under the ocean. The claim that a lack of physical evidence of a missile trumps Flight 800 missile witnesses is only as reliable as the integrity and preservation of all physical evidence. That claim is therefore clearly not reliable. Furthermore, with respect to evidence that has managed to survive the official investigation, it seems that definitional standards used by investigators serve to define potential missile evidence out of existence, thereby preventing the possibility of its discovery.
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Are we being lied to on a grand scale?
The answer to that is obviously YES.
Because we would be fed the official government line with every major news story – ala Pravda.
And we're not?
Good Stuff in this thread. I'm saving it on the OKBOMB disc I've made.
Make sure you don't miss posts #130 and #131... :)
From the Simpsons, (c) some time or other
How true, how true...
Ian Goddard did a very good job here and you did a very good service posting it here.
Thanks, and thanks to Ian Goddard for doing all of this research that's been buried by the establishment press.
The John Birch Society passes this document out like candy.
And like all freedom loving Americans, I appreciate the fact if they do...
This guy is *real* good representation for you tin-foilers ...
_Jim, you decided to join the party. You've just proved my point in what you just posted. If you can't deny the facts and have no argument against the truth, you engage in the tactic of smearing the messenger. So what if Ian Goddard is against marijuana laws, does that change the truth in what he said? Does that change the facts at all?
The TRUE and HONEST answer to that question is an emphatic NO! But I'm sure you'll resort to furthur character assassination just as the major media did to him and Peter Salinger. That is why he hung up his "conspiracy" hat and decided to lead a more private life, as he couldn't deal with the attacks and the lies...
Hmm...where's the Great Right Wing Conspiracy?
Any "conspiracy theory" that the establishment such as CNN and the other networks propagate and support is one for which one might want to buy a real foil hat for...
Especially if it originates from Hillary and Bill Clinton. :)
"COULD IT HAPPEN AGAIN?—(Sat. 3 p.m.; Sun. 9 p.m. ET) On July 17th, 1996, the unthinkable happened—within minutes of takeoff, a routine flight to Europe became the tragedy of TWA flight 800. Find out why this happened, how it could have been prevented, and why the government admits the same thing will likely strike again. This weekend, Fox in Focus examines a little known defect of 747 jets which makes all air travelers vulnerable to a similar disaster. Don't miss our investigation into The Tragedy of TWA 800!"
And we can believe everything coming from the former Soviet Union, right Fred?
How come your copy has wrinkles and all Michael Redvero's documents are clean, neatly pressed and then scanned? (Tongue *firmly* planted in cheek on that question!)
I guess he saw that movie where the counterfeiters put the funny money into a washing machine with coins and other stuff to make it look real. A nice trick to fool the naive..
Needless to say, REAL money is often UNWRINKLED.
It causes me to wonder where were these naysayers when Clinton and reno were in charge?
A lot of us, unlike you, were posting articles HERE ON FREE REPUBLIC critical of the Clinton administration and all of it's crimes. In case you forgot, the OKC bombing, Waco, Ruby Ridge, and TWA 800 occured while BILL CLINTON WAS PRESIDENT. So just what is up with your approval of the official lies if you profess to be anti-clinton?
For a theory to be "proven true" it would have to directly follow from the evidence, no inferences allowed. Just being a theory that seems to explain the evidence is not enough because there could be a second theory that noone has thought of that would do it as well. But if the evidence leads directly to the theory, without any uncertainty, it could be considered "proven".
Do you mean from the evidence that was destroyed, the evidence that was fabricated, or the actual truthful evidence and eyewitness testimony?
For instance, the government withheld, manipulated, and destroyed evidence in the TWA 800 disaster. All REAL remaining evidence points to a missile. All eyewitness testimony points to a missile. And the government even went so far as to falsify a test on the CWT and used that as "evidence" of their theory.
Now, why don't any investigative reporters from the major networks report these facts? And why do people like you accept these lies and attempt to convince us that we're wrong?
This article must have hit a few nerves. I see they've sicced the disinfo squad on it! (_Jim, Fred25, mlo, karebare--how are things at the Ministry of Truth?)
Must be some REALLY important stuff in this thread.. :) We can always tell by those who show up and spread ridicule..
Has it occurred to anyone else just how much their tactics resemble what the Commies used to do in Russia?
That's an affirmative. Maybe they ARE commies from Russia, who's to say?
Internet Resources on the Tuskeegee Study
Thanks for that link. Another case of a major crime against the People that was cloaked by ridicule and fear..
Have heads ever rolled for THAT little mistake (if it was a mistake)? Has anyone in the FBI been held accountable for bombing the WTC?
PROVE that one. I dare ya ...
... or you're the one that is a liar ...
And just what documents other than Fred's historical gaffe do you consider to be faked?
"COULD IT HAPPEN AGAIN?—(Sat. 3 p.m.; Sun. 9 p.m. ET) On July 17th, 1996, the unthinkable happened—within minutes of takeoff, a routine flight to Europe became the tragedy of TWA flight 800. Find out why this happened, how it could have been prevented, and why the government admits the same thing will likely strike again. This weekend, Fox in Focus examines a little known defect of 747 jets which makes all air travelers vulnerable to a similar disaster. Don't miss our investigation into The Tragedy of TWA 800!"
You KNOW they're going to parrot the CWT theory which has been pretty much debunked as a flimsy hoax. Now if they were to have Jack Cashill on, THEN I might watch.. :)
I have seen plenty of lies. And most of them are about OKC. Lies are coming from people here, who have NO interest in OKC. And no interest in anyone in OKC.
You don't care about anything but your "conspiracy".
You may take advantage of your definition of nice people.
I know the car salesman democrat definition of nice .And guess what? I don't fit your definition of nice ... I would rather use my brain than follow you nice people.
No! My Mickey Mouse document is REAL! General Mickey Mouse DID dispatch Libertarian helicopters and 50 cases of Cheetos to Oklahoma City!! If it’s on the internet, it must be TRUE!!!
An anagram for you:
CONSPIRACY THEORY =
CORNY, IRATE PSYCHO
Just being,
And I’ve seen Ryder trucks EVERYWHERE! They are EVERYWHERE! They are part of the NWO! We’re ALL DOOMED!
I have seen plenty of lies. And most of them are about OKC. Lies are coming from people here, who have NO interest in OKC. And no interest in anyone in OKC.
So why don't you tell us YOUR version of what happened? Do you have anything to say, or are you just attacking those that do?
You don't care about anything but your "conspiracy".
I care about my Country. What do YOU care about karebare?
Wait a second...anyone that knows anything about investigative reporting knows that this State Department Doc. 7277, can be found at any public government depository library or can also be obtained through the Freedom of Information Act, or can be accessed through the State Department's Electronic Reading Room. This document was written during Kennedy's presidency and was actually written as a treaty for the U.N. This document is still active, although I do not believe that any country really takes this agreement seriously, America is still not ready to disarm, although the first two stages of this document have already been put into effect. This are the bare facts, no conpiracy theories needed.
I appreciate this service too...although the John Birch Society does have a tendency to be a little bit paranoid, but hey, the way I see it, they still serve a legitimate function in society by reminding people to defend American values and to abhor Communism, it seems that not that many people do anymore.
I've repeated my side several times. I know some of the people you are calling conspirators. I'm not giving out names because I think you guys are so out of the norm ,you'd cause them harm ,to protect your "conspiracy".
As to your question about where I was during x42 tenure,I was out in the world recruiting voters Republican,Liberaterian,and Independents. To over come your boss the spewmeister,and his master gore.
And I know what your boss was doing ,he was using the fear of people around here(of Clinton)to cause them to stock up their supplies,and that helped prop up the last year or so of the democrat economy. He uses a small bit of truth ,and some people are hooked.
I knew about the marshall law executive orders clinton signed. But it was your boy who used them to fool you into helping your enemy,just as you are being fooled by him now.
So how does convincing people that every person working for the government, is involved in a huge conspiracy,and is out to kill them,how is that supposed to convince me that you love this country? I probably have more reason to distrust parts of the government than anyone else around here. Because I have been fighting the wrongs for a long while.
Here's the funny part ,had gore installed himself ,I bet rivero would be playing my roll here. But I would not be playing his, because I still would not use the victims tragedy for political gains. I think your leader is having himself a really big laugh, on you.
What do I love? GOD, My family, half of my country, Oklahoma, laughter.
I'm saying a prayer that more people will see the truth, and his plans of causing conservatives to cause bombings will fail. .
My God! We've got the Bear, Jimbo & Freddy on the same ambush team. There has to be some powerful truth that needs to be destroyed on this thread.
Maybe the ambush team can call their controller and ask him/her if there's any truth behind the CIA getting caught with the Afghan bunch that they brought over from Kabul nailing TWA-800. Ramzi Yousef said they did. You know, the guy with the WTC bombing team; the one the FBI helped out.
Jimbo & the gang have to know about that CIA mess, with the Afghan drugs & all that.
Hey team, make the call! Do you want some documentation first??? Start with Presidential Executive Order 12333. That gave the CIA the authority - above and beyond the U.S. Law - to scam the TWA-800 video and dismiss the hundreds of witnesses.
Go ahead; make the call!
I've repeated my side several times. I know some of the people you are calling conspirators. I'm not giving out names because I think you guys are so out of the norm ,you'd cause them harm ,to protect your "conspiracy".
We already know about Fred25, _Jim, mlo, and various others who frequent all of the "conspiracy" theads in order to discredit any facts which may be damaging in the government's view. And I think they've "harmed" themselves by doing so, as it is only serves to prove that they are in fact government shills..
As to your question about where I was during x42 tenure,I was out in the world recruiting voters Republican,Liberaterian,and Independents. To over come your boss the spewmeister,and his master gore.
You seem to have a problem reading. What's up with you trying to make me out to be a Clinton supporter? Did you already forget that TWA800, OKC, Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the WTC bombing all occured while Clinton was President? I posted THAT in the previous post as well as the fact that that I've been criticizing these scandals for years now..
And I know what your boss was doing ,he was using the fear of people around here(of Clinton)to cause them to stock up their supplies,and that helped prop up the last year or so of the democrat economy. He uses a small bit of truth ,and some people are hooked.
Are you smoking something illegal right now, or did you forget to take you medicine again? Where do you come up with this garbage?
Ok, I jumped ahead and see that you're talking about Rivero. See karebare, you are picking up tricks from Fred25 and gang in the way of ridiculing and smearing people who you want to discredit. For one, Rivero wasn't saying anything different than a multitude of other people in that many things were possible when the clock hit twelve on 1/1/00. And for two, he's not my boss anymore than I'm yours. And just because you keep repeating that lie doesn't make it true.
I'll prove it to you. I am your boss, I am your boss, I am your boss. Ok, now I want you to take your PC and throw it into the shower and turn the water on. You must obey!!
Did it work? Bzzt, zaap**!! LOL
I knew about the marshall law executive orders clinton signed. But it was your boy who used them to fool you into helping your enemy,just as you are being fooled by him now.
Now who's my enemy karebare? And just WHO is my boy?
So how does convincing people that every person working for the government, is involved in a huge conspiracy,and is out to kill them,how is that supposed to convince me that you love this country? I probably have more reason to distrust parts of the government than anyone else around here. Because I have been fighting the wrongs for a long while.
I've you really HAD been fighting wrongs, you'd see what we're trying to say here. And if you really CARED karebare, you'd read these articles a little closer and realize that we aren't talking about wild fantasies, but reporting FACTS.
Here's the funny part ,had gore installed himself ,I bet rivero would be playing my roll here. But I would not be playing his, because I still would not use the victims tragedy for political gains. I think your leader is having himself a really big laugh, on you.
Oh, so Mr. Rivero's my leader now? Okie dokie karebare.. LOL
Who's YOUR LEADER, Fred25?
What do I love? GOD, My family, half of my country, Oklahoma, laughter.
You should love ALL of your country, as God created People in His Own Image, so you should respect and treat ALL people accordingly.
I'm saying a prayer that more people will see the truth, and his plans of causing conservatives to cause bombings will fail. .
And I hope that your prayers are answered if you REALLY DO desire to see the TRUTH, and that rather than believing what Fred24 or I say on faith alone, that you develop an open mind and not allow your vision to be clouded by those whose goal is to decieve. I hope that you learn how to see the TRUTH for yourself, if that is what you TRULY desire.
Fred's Doc is gone.
Sorry, the photo you're looking for is not in this album. The album owner may have moved or deleted the photo. Please check with the owner to verify that you have the correct url and try again.
Fnord, I see them too, those Ryder trucks are always on the highways! fnord.
razorback, it was not “my” document. It was some other freeper’s document that I linked too. On one the “conspiracy” threads a couple of months ago, a guy posted three “cartoon” pictures, and I linked to two of them. I don’t remember his name because I didn’t think it would be an important issue later. If you want to see my “Mickey Mouse” document, I’ll post a link to it.
The more these tin-foil-hatters talk, the more ridiculous they look. To them, everything is a conspiracy, and they think that anyone who disagrees with them is part of The Great Conspiracy.
"Fred's Doc is gone."
Now there's a familiar m.o.! Sounds a lot like what certain federal agencies do with embarrassing or inconvenient evidence. I guess Fred25 finally realized what all this document-faking was doing to his reputation. And gee, he thought it was such a nifty idea at the time...LOL!
"Wait a second...anyone that knows anything about investigative reporting knows that this State Department Doc. 7277, can be found at any public government depository library or can also be obtained through the Freedom of Information Act, or can be accessed through the State Department's Electronic Reading Room. "
And one of this little group of Pravda-wannabes does claim to be an investigative reporter. Not only that, but he frequently tries to "instruct" the rest of us on the error of our own investigations. (Gee, does that mean writing for a couple of obscure hobby-zines doesn't quite cover the finer points of "investigative reporting?")
"Which reminds, I've got to call them and ask if they mind copy-righted material being posted all over the internet ... you KNOW those docs appeared in their mag some years back now ... "
Go talk to legal in your BATF office (that is where you work, right?), and they'll tell you what even a lot of non-attorneys know: these are public documents, and cannot be copyrighted. New American Magazine did not create them. See my post #127. And by the way, I think you owe me an apology for calling me a liar.
"And if you were to put aside what you've been led to believe happened,you would see that the Murrah was a pretty building. But the construction went through the same political process that you so dispise."
So now you're a construction expert too? Let's see now, Karebare--you've so far claimed to have been on the site just after the bombing, then I seem to recall you saying you were there at the time of the bombing, now you're claiming to know how the building was built, and the process by which the contracts were made.
Well, hot dang, folks, I think we've got a real expert here! No need to read actual documents, or refer to actual reports, or listen to any of those other, less knowledgeable (obviously!) witnesses--all we need to do is just ask the all-knowing Karebare next time we need to know something!
"And we also have the "misplaced" evidence in the TWA800 case.."
And so many other cases as well. Not to mention evidence cooked up in the FBI labs--"Evidence prepared on order--we aim to please!" (Or, "You book 'em, we cook 'em.")
"And we can believe everything coming from the former Soviet Union, right Fred?"
Funny, isn't it, that the guy whose theme song might well be "Even mommie is a commie" puts so much faith in them?
"Now, why don't any investigative reporters from the major networks report these facts? And why do people like you accept these lies and attempt to convince us that we're wrong?"
Maybe mlo can give us another treatise on sound. The last one was so entertaining (albeit false).
"That's an affirmative. Maybe they ARE commies from Russia, who's to say? "
I don't know if they are, but their orders seem to come from some place or someone who's no friend to liberty or to this country.
Aces and eights, Custers Luck, Grassy Knolls, Vince Foster, Ron Brown and girls who disappear. Who knows? I tend not to believe in cover-ups. Too many loose lips. Chandra was dumped in a deep hole, by a buddie of Condit. The DC police are inept. No body will be found and therefore, no crime. It's time to move on.
Let me ask you something point blank.
1) Are you saying that the government didn't conceal, destroy, withhold, falsify and alter evidence in the TWA 800 case?
2) Are you saying that 736 witnesses are wrong and should be ignored?
3) Are you saying that the government didn't lie in order to conceal the TRUTH from the American People?
4) And finally, are you saying that the government and the media hasn't portrayed people who attempt to expose these undeniable facts as "conspiracy nuts"?
"Mustard gas experiments on as many as 60,000 U.S. military personnel, denied by the U.S. government, of course, for decades."
PUBLIC LAW 95-79 [P.L. 95-79]
TITLE 50, CHAPTER 32, SECTION 1520
"CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WARFARE PROGRAM"
"The use of human subjects will be allowed for the testing of chemical and biological agents by the U.S. Department of Defense, accounting to Congressional committees with respect to the experiments and studies."
...
"The Secretary of Defense [may] conduct tests and experiments involving the use of chemical and biological [warfare] agents on civilian populations [within the United States]."
-SOURCE-
Public Law 95-79, Title VIII, Sec. 808, July 30, 1977, 91 Stat. 334.
In U.S. Statutes-at-Large, Vol. 91, page 334, you will find
Public Law 95-79.
Public Law 97-375, title II, Sec. 203(a)(1), Dec. 21, 1982, 96 Stat.
1882.
In U.S. Statutes-at-Large, Vol. 96, page 1882, you will find
Public Law 97-375.
The following list comes from declassified documents, news reports, videos, the National Archives, and from the final report of the Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments. http://www.seas.gwu.edu/nsarchive/radiation/
1900:
A U.S. doctor doing research in the Philippines infects a number of prisoners with the Plague. He continues his research by inducing Beriberi in another 29 prisoners. The experiments result in two known fatalities.
1907:
Indiana passes the world's first law authorizing the state to force the sterilization of those it deems unfit to reproduce. In germany, Adolf Hitler is 10 years old.
1915:
A doctor in Mississippi produces Pellagra in twelve Mississippi inmates in an attempt to discover a cure for the disease.
1927:
Carrie Buck of Charlottesville is legally sterilized against her will at the Virginia Colony Home for the Mentally Infirm. Carrie Buck was the mentally normal daughter of a mentally retarded mother, but under the Virginia law, she was declared potentially capable of having a "less than normal child" after having one normal child (by rape) and was forcibly sterilized.
The settlement of Poe v. Lynchburg Training School and Hospital (same institution, different name) in 1981 brought to an end the Virginia law. It is estimated that as many as 10,000 perfectly normal women were forcibly sterilized for "legal" reasons including alcoholism, prostitution, and criminal behavior in general.
1931:
The Puerto Rican Cancer Experiment is undertaken by Dr. Cornelius Rhoads. Under the auspices of the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Investigations, Rhoads purposely infected his subjects with cancer cells. Thirteen of the subjects died. When the experiment was uncovered, and in spite of Rhoads' written opinions that the Puerto Rican population should be eradicated, Rhoads went on to establish U.S. Army Biological Warfare facilities in Maryland, Utah, and Panama. He later was named to the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission and was at the heart of the recently revealed radiation experiments on prisoners, hospital patients, and soldiers (these are covered in the ACHE report. http://www.seas.gwu.edu/nsarchive/radiation/)
1930s:
Seventeen U.S. states have laws permitting forced sterilization. German officials cited those laws as precident for the forced sterilization of Jews under Nazi rule.
1932:
The Tuskegee Syphilis Study began. Two hundred poor black men with syphilis began a long term experiment in which those men were to be studied. They were never told of their illness, and treatment was denied them. As many as 100 of the original 200 died as a direct or indirect result of the illness. The wives and children of the subjects also suffered as a result of the disease. (The government office supervising the study was the predecessor to today's Centers for Disease Control (CDC)).
1932:
Margaret Sanger. the founder of Planned Parenthood, wrote in "A Plan For Peace" that her aims were, "To give certain dysgenic groups in our population their choice of segregation [concentration camps] or sterilization". Between 2000-4000 forced sterlizations per year were taking place in the United States. The following year, when Ernst Rudin established the Nazi system for forced sterilization of those it deemed unfit to reproduce, Rassenhygiene (Race hygiene), he chose as his inspiration and model the writings of William H. Tucker, associate professor of psychology at Rutgers University, Camden, New Jersey, USA. When Rudin's forced sterilization of Jews by irradiation with X-rays was revealed, Margaret Sanger refused to denounce him.
1932:
Veterens from WW1, made homeless by the stock market crash of 1929, build a tent city near Washington D.C. while they try to collect on a promised combat bonus which the government has failed to pay (a situation the troops in Bosnia can identify with). Rather than pay the money, the government orders US Cavalry to destroy the tent city. The troops attack the camp on horseback with drawn sabers, against unarmed men, woman, & children.
If anyone doubts that our government would use it's own weapons against it's own troops, gaze upon this atrocity. These were not deserters. They were honorable soldiers, who had won the World War, been refused their promised pay, made homeless by the government's economic policies, then cut down.
1934:
Leon Whitley, of the American Eugenics Society, receives a letter requesting a copy of her recent book,"The Case for Sterilization". She mails it off, and soon receives a personal letter of thanks. From Adolf Hitler.
In his letter of thanks for American writer Madison Grant, Hitler declares Grant's book,"The Great Race" to be his "bible".
1940's:
In a crash program to develop new drugs to fight Malaria during World War II, doctors in the Chicago area infect nearly 400 prisoners with the disease. Although the Chicago inmates were given general information that they were helping with the war effort, they were not provided adequate information in accordance with the later standards set by the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal. Nazi doctors on trial at Nuremberg cited the Chicago studies as precedents to defend their own behavior in aiding the German war effort.
February 1946
Operation Crossroads. The occupants of Bikini Atoll are told they must leave their island home for a "short while" during which atomic bombs are tested by blowing up captured Japanese and German naval vessels filled with livestock. The Bikinians are never allowed to return, although the area is now operated as a sport diving attraction.
1946-1974:
The Atomic Energy Commission authorizes a series of experiments in which radioactive materials are given to individuals in many cases without being informed they were the subject of an experiment, and in some cases without any expectation of a positive benefit to the subjects, who were selected from vulnerable populations such as the poor, elderly, and mentally retarded children (who were fed radioactive oatmeal without the consent of their parents). In 1996, the United States settles for 4.9 million dollars.
1950:
The U.S. Navy sprays a cloud of bacteria over San Francisco. The Navy claims that the bacteria are harmless, and used only to track a simulated attack, but many San Francisco residents became ill with pneumonia-like symptoms, and one is known to have died.
1950 - 1953:
An array of germ warfare weapons is allegedly used against North Korea. Accounts claim that there were releases of feathers infected with anthrax, fleas and mosquitoes dosed with Plague and Yellow Fever, and rodents infected with a variety of diseases. These were precisely the same techniques used in immunity from prosecution in exchange for the results of that research. The Eisenhower administration later pressed Sedition Charges against three Americans who published charges of these activities. However, none of those charged were convicted.
October 1951
Operation Buster Jangle - Nevada. An atomic bomb is detonated with troops in trenches just 5 miles away as an exercise designed to see how well troops can secure a breach opened in enemy lines with a tactical nuclear weapon. The only special protection given to troops are sunglasses, the origin of the "Rayban" trademark.
March 1953
Operation Upshot/Knothole - Navada tests that exposed 18,000 personel to high levels of radiation resulting in various cancers later in life. Downwind exposures for local civilian residents outside the test area are far worse, triggering an epidemic of thyroid cancers in some 28,000 people leading to 1400 deaths.
February 1954
Operation Castle - testing of H-bombs at Bikini Atoll. Despite a last minute change in wind direction, the government refuses to postpone one of the H-bomb tests, which produces a far greaer yield (read "boom") than expected. The wind born radiation resulted in the worst radiation disaster in US history by poisoning several Marshall Islands forcing their evacuation. In addition, a Japanese fishing vessel, the Daigo Fukuryu Maru was hit with radiation. The crew of 23 came down with radiation sickness, and one man died. Worse, the US government failed to inform the Japanese of what had happened and the cargo of fish was sold in Japanese markets, causing an epidemic of health problems.
1952 - 1953:
In another series of experiments, the U.S. military released clouds of "harmless" gases over six (6) U.S. and Canadian cities to observe the potential for similar releases under chemical and germ warfare scenarios. A follow-up report by the military noted the occurrence of respiratory problems in the unwitting civilian populations.
1955:
The Tampa Bay area of Florida experienced a sharp rise in Whooping Cough cases, including 12 deaths, after a CIA test where a bacteria withdrawn from the Army's Chemical and Biological Warfare arsenal was released into the environment. Details of the test are still classified.
1956 - 1958:
In Savannah, Georgia and Avon Park, Florida, the Army carried out field tests in which mosquitoes were released into residential neighborhoods from both ground level and from aircraft. Many people were swarmed by Mosquitoes, and fell ill, some even died. After each test, U.S. Army personnel posing as public health officials photographed and tested the victims. It is theorized that the mosquitoes were infected with a strain of Yellow Fever. However, details of the testing remain classified.
May - October 1957
Operation Plumb Bob atomic tests exposes civilians to radiation.
1965:
In a three year study, 70 volunteer prisoners at the Holmesburg State Prison in Philadelphia were subjected to tests of dioxin, the highly toxic chemical contaminant in Agent Orange. Lesions which the men developed were not treated and remained for up to seven months. None of the subjects was informed that they would later be studied for the development of cancer. This was the second such experiment which Dow Chemical undertook on "volunteers" who did not receive the information which the world proclaimed was necessary for "informed consent" at Nuremberg.
Note: Dow/Corning manufactured and sold artificial breast implants even after the health risks of the implants became known. The massive class action lawsuit was only recently settled.
1966:
The U.S. Army dispensed a bacillus throughout the New York City subway system. Materials available on the incident noted the Army's justification for the experiment was the fact that there are many subways in the (former) Soviet Union, Europe, and South America. Although there are no harmful effects known for this release, details of the experiment are still classified.
1968 - 1969:
The CIA experimented with the possibility of poisoning drinking water by injecting a chemical substance into the water supply of the Food And Drug Administration in Washington, D.C.. There were no harmful effects noted from this experiment. However, none of the human subjects in the building were ever asked for their permission, nor was anyone provided with information on the nature or effects of the chemical used.
1969:
On June 9, 1969, Dr. D.M. McArtor, then Deputy Director of Research and Technology for the Department of Defense, appeared before the House Subcommittee on Appropriations to request funding for a project to produce a synthetic biological agent for which humans have not yet acquired a natural immunity. Dr. McArtor asked for $10 million dollars to produce this agent over the next 5-10 years. The Congressional Record reveals that according to the plan for the development of this germ agent, the most important characteristic of the new disease would be "that it might be refractory [resistant] to the immunological and therapeutic processes upon which we depend to maintain our relative freedom from infectious disease". AIDS first appeared as a public health risk ten years later, appearing first in a population of gay men who had been subjects in a test of a new Hepatitas vaccine. In 1989, work by Alan Cantwell Jr., M.D. linking AIDS to the hepatitis B viral vaccine experiments is suppressed at the 1989 AIDS International Conference by officials of the World Health Organization.
1972:
President Nixon announced a ban on the production and use of biological (but not chemical) warfare agents. However, as the Army's own experts reveal, this ban is meaningless because the studies required to protect against biological warfare weapons are generally indistinguishable from those to develop chemical weapons. Research on offensive bio-war continued under the justification that such research was a necessary pre-cursor to defensive bio-war.
1974:
Less publicized was National Security Study memorandum 200. This document declared that overpopulation of the world posed a grave threat to the nation and urged the imposition of population control measures wherever possible. While the media have reported the forced sterilizations in China, Canada, and Sweden, the abuses of the sterilization programs here in the United States remain concealed from public view. A class action suit in Los Angeles revealed that Chicano women were being sterilized immediatly after giving birth. The non-English speaking women had been given sterilization consent forms in English and were told the operation was to deal with the after-affects of the pregnancy. Similar abuses were reported on reservations, with estimates of coerced or covert sterilization running as high as one woman out of every four. Yet another lawsuit in New Yortk and a scandal in Puerto Rico led to the passage of laws requiring a standardized consent form printed in multiple languages in 1979.
More can be found in... Michael Parenti. [book] "Democracy for the Few" (St. Martin's Press 1995)
Since 1979, population control in accordance with NSS 200 has become more covert. An organization in Belgium called the "World Federation Of Doctors who value life" claims to have discovered a sterilizing agent in the tetanus vaccines being used in third world nations by the World Health Organization. The claim is supported by the fact that only women were given the multi-injection tetanus shots (normal tetanus shots only require a single injection).
Villagers in India were offered cash payments on the condition that 75 percent of all men in the village submit to vasectomy. In another Indian village, "100 percent of the eligible couples" were reported to have accepted family planning, mostly by means of vasectomy, in exchange for a new village well.
1977:
Ray Ravenhott, director of the population program of the U.S. Agency for International Development (AID), publicly announced the agency's goal to sterilize one quarter of the world's women. In reports by the St Louis Post-Dispatch, Ravenhott in essence cited the reasoning for this being U.S. corporate interests in avoiding the threat of revolutions which might be spawned by chronic unemployment. Since then, allegations have surfaced that free vaccinations being given by the World Health Organization include a "pregnancy anti-body" which fools a woman's body into treating a pregnancy as an infection.
1980-1981:
Within months of their incarceration in detention centers in Miami and Puerto Rico, many male Haitian refugees developed an unusual condition called "gynecomasia". This is a condition in which males develop full female breasts. A number of the internees at Ft. Allen in Puerto Rico claimed that they were forced to undergo a series of injections which they believed to be hormones. When "Inside Investigations" showed a prison video of serial killer Richard Speck engaging in drugs and sex, the female breasts were clearly visible on the man.
http://209.207.138.85/speck2.htm
1981:
More than 300,000 Cubans were stricken with dengue hemorrhagic fever. An investigation by the magazine 'Covert Action Information Bulletin', which tracks the workings of various intelligence agencies around the world, suggested that this outbreak was the result of a release of mosquitoes by Cuban counterrevolutionaries. The magazine tracked the activities of one CIA operative from a facility in Panama to the alleged Cuban connections. During the last 30 years, Cuba has been subjected to an enormous number of outbreaks of human and crop diseases which are difficult to attribute purely natural causes.
1982:
El Salvadoran trade unionists claimed that epidemics of many previously unknown diseases had cropped up in areas immediately after U.S. directed aerial bombings.
1985:
An outbreak of Dengue fever strikes Managua Nicaragua shortly after an increase of U.S. aerial reconnaissance missions. Nearly half of the capital city's population was stricken with the disease, and several deaths have been attributed to the outbreak. It was the first such epidemic in the country and the outbreak was nearly identical to that which struck Cuba a few years earlier (1981). Dengue fever variations were the focus of much experimentation at the Army's Biological Warfare test facility at Ft. Dietrick, Maryland prior to the 'ban' on such research in 1972.
1985:
In ruling on a case in which a former U.S. Army sergeant attempted to bring a lawsuit against the Army for using experimental drugs on him, without his knowledge, the U.S. Supreme Court determined that allowing such an action against the military would disrupt the chain of command. Thus, nearly all potential actions against the military for past, or future, misdeeds have been barred as have actions aimed at the release of classified documents on the subject.
In short, no matter what they do to you, nothing will happen to them. Dr. Mengala would have loved it here!
1987:
As the result of a lawsuit by a public interest group, the Department of Defense was forced to reveal the fact that it still operated Chemical and Biological Warfare (CBW) research programs at 127 sites around the United States.
1992:
The Michigan Supreme Court rules that the state court has the right to order sterilizations "for the good of the ward".
1994:
Abuses of American sponsored population control agendas start to surface around the world.
Mr. Leanardo Casco, a member of the Honduran delegation to the 1994 United Nations World Population Conference in Cairo said, "In our hospitals and in our health care system, we have a lot of problems getting basic medicines -- things like penicillin and antibiotics. There is a terrible shortage of basic medicines, but you can find the cabinets full of condoms, pills and IUDs."
Dr. Stephen K. Karanja, an obstetrician/gynecologist from Kenya, writes, "[T]housands of the Kenyan people will die of Malaria whose treatment costs a few cents, in health facilities whose stores are stalked [sic] to the roof with millions of dollars worth of pills, IUDs, Norplant, Depo-provera, most of which are supplied with American money."
1996:
Under pressure from Congress and the public, after a 60 Minutes segment, the U.S. Department of Defense finally admits that at least 20,000 U.S. servicemen "may" have been exposed to chemical weapons during operation 'Desert Storm'. This exposure is claimed to be the result of the destruction of a Iraqi weapons bunker. Similar illnesses of other troops, who were not in this area, suggest other means of exposure not yet admitted to. Veterans groups have released information that many of the problems may be a result of experimental vaccines and innoculations which were provided troops during the military buildup.
1996:
In testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in June 1996, Christine de Vollmer, president of the Latin America Alliance for the Family, said that Latin America perceives Timothy Wirth, Undersecretary of State and top official in charge of U.S. population control policy, as "a ruthless population controller, unashamed of coercive measures and disrespectful" of the human rights of people, particularly women, in developing countries.
Brazilian senator Rosiska Darcy de Olivera condemned the United States for its population programs, which force Brazilian women to undergo sterilization, saying: "To say that women from the South who have many babies are responsible for the environmental crisis -- it's a scandal."
1997:
The city of Minneapolis is sprayed with chemicals used to test germ warfare techniques over a period of several months, in 61 seperate operations. It is assumed that the checmicals are hamless, but there is an oncrease in the rates for respiratory illness in the sprayed areas.
Students and faculty at the Jasper School in Arkansas are struck down by a mysterious malady on Jan 31st that sends many of them to the hospital. Some of the paramedics and emergancy workers who arrive at the school later become ill, with the primary symptom being an incapacitating headache, which takes several weeks to subside. Despite constant monitoring of the kids by health workers, no cause is ever announced.
Very ,very, good chart. Kinda helps me understand them. Although I really don't want to. They're gagging me.
See yourself put in words I did not say? Well I know you remember events that did not happen, and you don't remember events that did happen.
I know a lot of actual people,something maybe you should try.
1337:
1/3 of Eruope dies from plague
1918:
675,000 Americans die from Spanish Flu epidemic.
2001:
Internet message boards infected with thousands of crackpots.
You know I didn't even read the origional article posted.
But I did read something about them not caring if we partied while were here. Should I bring a bottle of bubbly or would you rather I bring "dough-nuts" ?.Never mind their already here .I'll just bring the bubbly.
I've got the guacamole!
I love guacamole !!I'll bring tomatoes and peppers from my garden.
Ok! Here’s some good Southwest music!
Party time!!!!
"I'll bring tomatoes and peppers from my garden."
I wonder who's bringing the Kool-Aid...
Oh, loosen up and come join our party!!
No Kool-Aid here. You and Rivero can keep it. We're having Tequila!
I know someone who likes kool-aid with vodka .And she has such a beautiful russian accent. Or was that the German I know? It's one of them ,the Japanese girl drinks the rice liquor. The muslims don't drink. Any way your invited golitely. I think you are a good and decent person. I would even like to invite you to church. Do you do a good jello mold? mine always sticks.
I wonder who's bringing the Kool-Aid...
Perhaps the ghost of Jimmy Jones, as it appears that they know that they've been ALL snared into a trap.. LOL
To all of you happy little partiers..
Any of you want to take a shot at post #174?
Unless I read it wrong, or in too big a hurry.All 4 get a no from me. I do not trust the gov .in all instances.or the major media in any.
I knew I liked you. Brains get to me every time.
Unless I read it wrong, or in too big a hurry.All 4 get a no from me. I do not trust the gov .in all instances.or the major media in any.
So ALL of you agree that the government lied and concealed, destroyed, altered, and falsified evidence pertaining to the TWA 800 disaster? Thank you, you've finally ALL seen the light! So we aren't CONSPIRACY NUTS, we are all speaking the truth about EVERYTHING!!
Forgot to close the tag...
Hey, what are you on my back for? I think a missile could have shot down flight 800. But that doesn’t mean everything that ever happened was a “conspiracy”. And don’t shout in red please.
Hey, what are you on my back for?
I'm on your back because you're on mine. You're calling me and everybody here who disagrees with you a conspiracy nut. So now we're only nuts when we talk about things that aren't so easily proved?
I think a missile could have shot down flight 800. But that doesn’t mean everything that ever happened was a “conspiracy”. And don’t shout in red please.
So you admit that the government lied. If it is possible that they've lied in this instance, what's to say that they haven't lied in other cases which don't have as much (easily obtainable) evidence?
You see, "conspiracy nut" has been applied to those who didn't believe the government lies and disinformation pertaining to the TWA 800 disaster. We've been smeared and ridiculed for that, as well as many other people who've been involved with that investigation. Even the witnesses were discredited, by the CIA of all people.
The only "conspiracy nuts" there are, are those that go along with the "conspiracy".
And I'll shout in other colors than red from now on when I post to you Fred if that'll make you happy...
I think a missile could have shot down flight 800. But that doesn’t mean everything that ever happened was a “conspiracy”. Fred, you've just admitted that you think that the government obstructed justice, tampered with and destroyed evidence in addition to falsifying it out of whole cloth, in order to COVERUP THE TRUTH.
Thank you for seeing the light Fred.
Judge, I wanted to call your attention to Michael Rivero's post # 175. I thought it may be of interest to you.
as for davis - check out the 1997 deal re: jasper.
Have any of you seen that joke t-shirt that says:
ALCOHOL
TOBACO
FIREARMS
Who's bringing the chips?
You're calling me and everybody here who disagrees with you a conspiracy nut.
That’s because you are conspiracy nuts. You cloud all the facts of the real conspiracies.
So now we're only nuts when we talk about things that aren't so easily proved?
You are jumping to conclusions again. That’s a sure sign of a “nut”.
If it is possible that they've lied in this instance, what's to say that they haven't lied in other cases which don't have as much (easily obtainable) evidence?
That’s not sound reasoning. Forget about who “lied”, look at the clues. Solve the case first, then you can tell us who lied about it.
You see, "conspiracy nut" has been applied to those who didn't believe the government lies and disinformation pertaining to the TWA 800 disaster.
No. “Conspiracy nut” is applied to those who say every plane crash, every building explosion, every riot, every car wreck, and every person who dies in Arkansas all represent “government conspiracies”.
We've been smeared and ridiculed for that,
You are smeared and ridiculed for saying EVERYTHING that happens is a “conspiracy”. People can die and planes can crash without conspiracies being involved.
Even the witnesses were discredited, by the CIA of all people.
LOL! When I first saw that CIA computer-generate video, the first day it was released to the media, I said, “Uh Oh! Cover-up!”
Remember Rule #1: Solve the case first. Find out what happened first.
'I think a missile could have shot down flight 800. But that doesn’t mean everything that ever happened was a “conspiracy”.'
First off, thanks for admitting that the government of the United States is lying to the people about what happened to TWA 800.
And while "everything" may not be a conspiracy, a lot of things are, and the fact that we have both a word "conspiracy" and laws against conspiracy demonstrate that conspiracies do indeed exist.
By definition, a conspiracy is what happens whenever two or more people enter into an agreement to perform some unethical or illegal activity. For example, when a public relations firm plants grass roots lobbyists at a public hearing to change the outcome, that is technically a conspiracy, although not an illegal one under the present laws.
To take another benign example, Hill & Knowlton concocted a story about Iraqi troops stealing incubators from Kuwaiti hospitals and leaving premature babies to die on the floors. The story was a fake, which has been openly admitted to by H&K executives at various speaking engagemnts. Now, everyone who took part in that charade, which was intended to anger Americans into support for Operation Desert-Prop-Up-Oil-Prices, from the writers, to the H&K executives, to the Daughter of the Kuwait Ambassador who played the role of a nurse on TV, all had entered into a conspiracy to plant false information on the news media.
Take the USS Iowa Gun Turret explosion, which was initially blamed on a dead gay sailor to cover up the improper use and storage of the gun propellent. Every Navy man who took part in the "blame the dead guy" game was part of a conspiracy to put out a lie to conceal a truth.
That's what conspiracy is. It's just any group of people who agrees to an unethical or course of action. Two guys "getting their stories straight" before being quizzed by Congress is a conspiracy.
Conspiracies come in all sizes from tiny ones in office politics to grand ones like JFK, MLK, RFK, OK City, TWA 800, Vince Foster, etc. etc. etc.
But the biggest conspiracy of all is the claim that there are no conspiracies.
"LOL! When I first saw that CIA computer-generate video, the first day it was released to the media, I said, “Uh Oh! Cover-up!”
Remember Rule #1: Solve the case first. Find out what happened first. "
We already did solve it Fred. The Navy killed TWA 800 by accident and the government covered it up, and even you admit to the cover-up part. Just because you have not yet come to the same conclusions the rest of us have doesn't make us nuts, it just makes you slow.
But you admit there's a cover-up. That's a start. Indeed after some of your earlier posts on OK City your aknowledgement of a government cover-up has to count as an apotheosis!
So, given that the NTSB, Navy, FBI, CIA, DoJ and a lot of other similar agencies have to be part of such a cover-up, who had the authority at the time to give an order to the NTSB, Navy, FBI, CIA, DoJ, etc.
When you answer that question, you have solved the crime, because it is the cover-up that's the crime here.
JFK, MLK, RFK, OK City, TWA 800, Vince Foster, etc. etc. etc.
See post above. That’s exactly what I’m talking about. That’s why you guys are conspiracy “nuts”.
NTSB, Navy, FBI, CIA, DoJ, etc.
Ditto.
Hey, come watch the nuts perform before a live audience!!
"JFK, MLK, RFK, OK City, TWA 800, Vince Foster, etc. etc. etc.
See post above. That’s exactly what I’m talking about. That’s why you guys are conspiracy “nuts”. "
Fred, you have admitted that the government lies to the people and engages in cover-ups. Yet when anyone points out the cases where there is well documented evidence to doubt the official story you scream "conspiracy nut".
You seem to have taken the position that you and you alone are the only person smart enough to know when the government is lying and when it is being truthful.
Maybe the truth is that you're not smart enough to see through the government's lies, and rather than admit it you shout "conspiracy nut" or "in cahoots with the commies" at anyone who can perceive and comprehend what you cannot.
"Hey, come watch the nuts perform before a live audience!! "
I think Fred just realized the goof he has made. In admittng that he thinks there may have been a missile that hit TWA 800 and admitting that the CIA animation of a noseless 747 climbing 3000 feet, Fred has admitted that cover-ups exist and that the government lies to the people.
The problem is that this transfers the burden of proof in the debate to the government. Fred can no longer take the position that the government's view of anything be accepted at face value.
So Fred backpedals and starts screaming "conspiracy nut", but it wasn't all that long ago that Fred himself was claiming there was a conspiracy in the JFK assassination, albeit a Soviet rather than an American one. And Fred was shouitng that everyone he didn't agree with was "in cahoots" with the commies, which is just another phrase meaning, "in a conspiracy".
So, what does it mean when Fred, a man who thinks that there ARE conspiracies, calls other people "conspiracy nuts"?
I think a missile could have shot down flight 800. But that doesn’t mean everything that ever happened was a “conspiracy”. Fred
lyinKallstrom said anybody who doesn't belive USGovt. version ="live in dark crevices of life". I recorded it and replayed it to get the quote right.
Remember Rule #1: Solve the case first. Find out what happened first.
First, the official version and it's supporting evidence have to be reviewed and analyzed both logically and empirically. Most citizens do not have the resources in money, time, or expertise to "solve" these cases. We have a division of labor in this society. Most citizens go about their jobs, while their taxes are supposed to pay the salaries and expenses of those agencies responsible for investigating these "cases." The most important first thing for a citizen to discern is whether or not the official findings in any matter fit the known facts, empirically, and that the arguments contained within the official reports are logically valid.
By attempting to impose the arbitrary condition of "solving the case" before anyone can even question the official findings, you are logically PROHIBITING any private citizen from questioning the official findings, as your "rule" imposes the impossible task on the average citizen of "solving" cases that could cost the average citizen millions of dollars that none of them have to spend, and thousands of manhours none of them have either. Your rule is perfectly designed to close off any objection to any government finding, report, or simple claim, and that includes all the lies told by Bill Clinton.
It should also be noted that it is easy to subjectively overrule any claim that a given case has been "solved" by simply raising objections to any proffered alternative solution, such as a missile causing TWA 800 to go down. By inviting people to claim they have "solved" the "case," this shifts the main focus from the government's claims, to a private citizen's claim of having an alternative "solution." The private citizen's solution then becomes the issue, rather than the problems with a given government solution, so the problems of the government solution get lost in diversionary argument's about a private citizen's theoretical solution. It's like intellectual "jiu-jitsu" in which those with objection to government claims are now put on the defensive, while the government's various claims to unchallenged.
[an old type of gun that had been rechambered for larger bullets]
Could you possibly be just a little more vague here? The way you put that could have meant that it was an Iver Johnson lemon squeezer .22 which had been "rechambered" for .45 long.
I'm sorry to break it to you, old newshound, but that was about the most dimwitted thing I've ever seen posted in reference to a firearm.
Try again. If you're talking about a revolver, what would cause a bullet fired through the barrel to have few or no rifling markings would be installing a cylinder for a .38 on a frame and barrel for a .44 or .45. That amounts to "rechambering" the weapon to fire a smaller round, not a larger round.
Oswald was either in the theater at the time Tippit was shot, or he was not. Butch Burroughs stated he sold popcorn to Oswald at 1:15, which is ONE MINUTE before the shooting of Tippit blocks away. Another witness in the theater saw Oswald, just after he bought the popcorn, sit down in the main theater section, and proceed to move from seat-to-seat, always next to another person when there were few people attending the movie. Even SUPEROSWALD couldn't be in two places at once, and it is likely Tippit was shot much minutes earlier than the Warren Commission claimed, probably at 1:06PM, when Oswald had probably already entered the theater, or was on the way there when seen walking west at 1:03PM. These anomalies have to be resolved before the Warren version can be accepted, as they have no fingerprint, ballistics, or other reliable eyewitness testimony that put Oswald at the scene. The bent firing pin on the revolver was a real problem, but that was glossed away by inference, which, contrary to mlo's "rule" that inference CANNOT be used to resolve such matters, the government uses all the time:
The ammonium nitrate bomb was an inference, as the DOJ's Inspector General Report on the FBI Crime Lab concluded.
The spark that allegedly caused the center fuel tank explosion on TWA 800 is only an inference.
The single bullet allegedly being found on Governor Connally's stretcher was only an inference, or more a circular argument. The man who found A bullet on A stretcher would not state it was Connally's stretcher on which he found it.
Government can infer. You don't have the right, I guess.
[The cartridges were matched to the gun BTW]
What caliber cartridges? As I remember, cartridges test fired from Oswald's revolver bulged due to overpressure from the poorly matched cylinder. Those recovered at the scene were said by the officer who collected them not to have been malformed.
Did you get your info from Fred's newscast? ahaha
The Oswald revolver was retooled to fire .38 SPECIALS. It was a S&W Victory Model, or the type sent to Britain by Lend Lease in WWII. What this retooling did was make the spent casings bulge in the middle. The casings in evidence do not possess this bulge. Also, Oswald had six rounds in his revolver with the bent firing pin. The killer of Tippit ejected the four spent casings from the shooting. If the killer was Oswald, it is reasonable to conclude he had six rounds in the revolver at the time of the Tippit killing. So, he shoots four of six, leaving two live rounds in the cylinder. He must dump those first, as they will come out without having to use the extractor as the casings are not swelled. Then he ejects the spent casings. He has to reload the two unfired rounds and fumble for four more while fleeing the murder of a police officer in broad daylight. This type of motion is not easy to do, particularly when stressed. I had to try it on combat ranges, and do it while occassionally checking for targets. The original report was that the rounds came from an automatic pistol, which would make more sense, as the pistol would automatically eject the casings.
Government can infer. You don't have the right, I guess.
Oh, was that for me? :)
You can make conclusions short of "proof". We do it every day. Real life requires it. Legal cases require it. That is why it is "beyond a reasonable doubt" or a "preponderance of the evidence" instead of absolute proof.
This may be too much common sense. It's a shame they don't teach better critical thinking skills in school.
Yep. Four casings on the ground indicate a semi-auto rather than a revolver. If the officer who collected them reported them as .38's and that they were from a semi-auto, they could have been .38Supers. The officer who collected them said that he scratched his initials onto them before logging them into evidence and that the ones produced and said to match Oswald's test firings weren't the ones he collected.
I have to wonder why Oswald had two guns, both of which are proven junkers.
Of all the WWII bolt actions still available for sale, the Mannlicher-Carcano is the only one I know of which can be had for under a hundred bucks today. Could it be that these were what was available by mail order, and that buying mail order guns was the only way to establish a record of a gun purchase in Texas in the early 60s?
I forgot to add. I do not believe the MR conspiracy. I do believe the Government and the lying media more than him.
Late again.I just knew the ick would crash our party.Here we go again "It's hundreds of thousands, they're all out to get us" Give 'em an inch and they always want the mile!!!Back to the charts.
"Yep. Four casings on the ground indicate a semi-auto rather than a revolver."
Wrong.
"they could
have been .38Supers."
Wrong.
Of all the WWII bolt actions still available for sale, the Mannlicher-Carcano is the only one
I know of which can be had for under a hundred bucks today.
Wrong.
"Could it be that these were
what was available by mail order, and that buying mail order guns was the only way to
establish a record of a gun purchase in Texas in the early 60s"
At least you're asking a question this time and the answer is no.
Where's Katz? I love her. I dreamt she and I went on a trip to Hawaii together.And had a blast!!!And when I woke up I thought, wow I hope she's married to my x.
It might help if these guys would read the documents and stop guessing and making things up.
House Committee testimony.......
I think katze is on vacation.
Don’t forget, watch out for the NWO, NTSB, Navy, FBI, CIA, DoJ, NSA, ATF, FCC, HUD, FDA, and their involvement with the JFK, MLK, RFK, OK City, TWA 800, Vince Foster, etc. etc. etc. conspiracies.
Now fred you forgot the EPA now those guys are really after us 'They were harrassing my poor mama over a dead cow!!!Already planted!!
Oh, but the true definition of paranoia is that it is a heightened sense of awareness.
You're calling me and everybody here who disagrees with you a conspiracy nut.
That’s because you are conspiracy nuts. You cloud all the facts of the real conspiracies.
SO which are the REAL conspiracies Fred? Are you are mentor on that, or should we be allowed to think for ourselves? If there is ANY evidence of officially sanctioned government obstruction of justice, evidence tampering, or witness intimidation, then that blows the gates open doesn't it?
So now we're only nuts when we talk about things that aren't so easily proved?
You are jumping to conclusions again. That’s a sure sign of a “nut”.
You'd like people to believe that at least... Actually, it's the sign of a rational logical mind Fred. Have you ever been able to connect the dots in those little books for kids?
If it is possible that they've lied in this instance, what's to say that they haven't lied in other cases which don't have as much (easily obtainable) evidence?
That’s not sound reasoning. Forget about who “lied”, look at the clues. Solve the case first, then you can tell us who lied about it.
There's a LOT of evidence in other cases that people such as you try to discredit so that that People think it's all hogwash. Hard to solve a case when the people who are SUPPOSED to be solving it are actively COVERING IT UP..
You see, "conspiracy nut" has been applied to those who didn't believe the government lies and disinformation pertaining to the TWA 800 disaster. No. “Conspiracy nut” is applied to those who say every plane crash, every building explosion, every riot, every car wreck, and every person who dies in Arkansas all represent “government conspiracies”.
No, you are wrong Fred. For years the media (and some who post here on FR) have labeled those that think a missile shot down TWA 800 as a "conspiracy nut". Welcome aboard Fred, you've just joined our "nut club".
And honestly Fred, you can't say that you haven't disparaged people here with those words when they didn't agree with you. That or you imply that they're commies.
You are smeared and ridiculed for saying EVERYTHING that happens is a “conspiracy”. People can die and planes can crash without conspiracies being involved.
I never said that EVERYTHING is a conspiracy Fred, don't put words in my mouth that I've never said.
Even the witnesses were discredited, by the CIA of all people.
LOL! When I first saw that CIA computer-generate video, the first day it was released to the media, I said, “Uh Oh! Cover-up!”
Well you admit that there ARE such things at least. Again, if there ARE instances of government coverups and obtruction of justice, why should someone be labeled a nut if they suspect the government is guilty of a coverup in other cases? When has a government coverup ever been blown wide open where the guilty parties were actually prosecuted?
Remember Rule #1: Solve the case first. Find out what happened first.
Hard to do when evidence is destroyed and altered by those whose duty it is to perform the investigation.
FK, MLK, RFK, OK City, TWA 800, Vince Foster, etc. etc. etc.
See post above. That’s exactly what I’m talking about. That’s why you guys are conspiracy “nuts”.
NTSB, Navy, FBI, CIA, DoJ, etc.
Ditto.
Psst, Fred. Hate to tell you this, but the NTSB, Navy, FBI, CIA, and DoJ (Reno), were ALL involved with covering up the TWA 800 disaster, which you HAVE admitted IS a coverup.
So guess what Fred? You are a CONSPIRACY NUT!
You MUST have been wearing your tin foil hat recently, as you've apparently stopped those pesky government mind control waves somehow. You are finally starting to think rationally.. :)
Maybe we'll be seeing you star on the new version of the LONE GUNMAN?
Hey, what do you think about Donkey’s report about Jews? Where do you think they fit into all this conspiracy stuff? Ruby was Jewish, you know. What is the official tin-foil stand on Jews?
"So, what does it mean when Fred, a man who thinks that there ARE conspiracies, calls other people "conspiracy nuts"? "
The word for it, I think, is "hypocrite." But I think it goes deeper than that. I have my doubts that he expresses his own opinions here, as that is probably not his job. His job seems to be disinformation where possible, and failing that, disruption.
It's also amusing that since he came under so much fire for all those faked documents and photos, they've magically disappeared from their sites.
Kinda like the evidence in a lot of these cases...
Hey, what do you think about Donkey’s report about Jews?
I don't judge someone by their religion.
Unless of course their religion entailed sacrificing little babies to the dark slimey one, such as we've heard that some satanic cults have done....
As far as Jews, well, does it matter that Jesus was a Jew? I don't see why some people have a problem with those who are Jewish..
"Your rule is perfectly designed to close off any objection to any government finding, report, or simple claim, and that includes all the lies told by Bill Clinton."
It is also a peculiar rule for someone who has claimed to be an "investigative" reporter. If every investigative reporter did what F(r)ed25 suggests, there would never be any exposes. But then, that would please an awful lot of people, wouldn't it?
Let me try to explain this to you again...... You can’t start from the premise that “the government lies”. Everyone knows that various agencies and agents lie from time to time. I recall President Eisenhower telling the media that the Powers’ U2 plane was a “weather plane”, gathering “information about weather at high altitudes”. Our Gulf War generals told the media they would invade Kuwait by water, through the Gulf, but then they actually invaded Kuwait by land, to the west of the Gulf.
What you are doing is saying that any report the government issues about anything, such as a plane crash, a bombing, or a shooting, is a total lie, and, therefore, “the government” must have been engaged in a conspiracy to cause the crash, bombing, or shooting. That’s where you are making your biggest mistake. That’s an old SU/CPUSA Communist tactic, and you (and everyone else in the US) grew up reading and listening to that Communist propaganda. That’s what got you hooked on all this “conspiracy” crap in the first place, but you don't realize it.
I believe that tampering with evidence, witness tampering, and obstruction of justice are CRIMES. So it's not just that the government lies, they commit crimes to go with those lies.
That is precisely what happened with TWA 800. Altering of evidence, falsification of evidence, and destruction of evidence.
Not to mention that witnesses were told that they couldn't of seen what they say they did. And some were in fact intimidated.
"Welcome aboard Fred, you've just joined our "nut club"."
Actually, Fred25's been a conspiracy nut all long. He's certainly accused you and I of being part of some vast anti-government conspiracy. Considering most of us on these threads have never met one another before comparing notes on Free Republic, that's gotta be one nut-job conspiracy theory.
I just hit the abuse button on #221. Bad enough this thread is riddled with hypocrites--we don't need bigots too.
"You can’t start from the premise that “the government lies”."
Presumably, you would have us start from the premise that "the government always tells the truth"--therefore, move along, folks, nothing here. You learned the Communist lessons well, Fred25. Do your closest friends call you "comrade Fred?"
?I think a missile could have shot down flight 800."Fred25
Fred is keeping an open mind on something and now you're seizing on this new evidence that he agrees with you people. Yes, you people are conspiracy nuts. I think it's because you don't know how to investigate and you spend countless hours on the most trivial items. Do you want to spend weeks writing about a piece of plastic, how plywood covers a hole, a nonexistant Mauser?
I love this new controversy on whether or not the authorities faked the pictures of the officer shooting the rioter. The "evidence" is a piece of glass that looks like it appears again in another photo.
That ketchup loving bastard Kerry is one of the greatest examples that crap floats
The “instant conspiracy theory” about the Genoa shooting is typical of the way Communists take a rather basic simple event and try to turn it into a “capitalist conspiracy”. The rioter was trying to throw the red metal container at the policeman in the back of the Land Rover, and the policeman shot him. The rioter fell, then the driver backed over him, probably by accident. It's as simple as that.
I’ve seen this Communist propaganda at work since the early ‘60s. I covered Civil Rights news events, which the Communists said occurred in different ways from the ways they actually happened. The Communists are trained or self-taught to distort all news events they are interested in and present the public with a “revisionist version” that will support their “revolutionary” cause. It’s just like the way the Chinese government media reported the crash of their airplane, when it hit our surveillance plane.
Look, I purposely do not post on many of the threads you mention, because frankly, I don't know zip about most of them. This one, I do. I live here. I have a particular interest in it. In the beginning, I did keep an open mind, until I started noticing how quickly the officials moved to get rid of all the evidence, how reluctant they were to allow independent investigation, and how quickly they changed their stories.
I had the teevee on most of the first week, and watched the stories morph--and when newsies didn't stay on the same page, suddenly they weren't working any more. When bombing victims wandered off the reservation, suddenly they had their "aid" cut off--no more funding, no more counseling, only threats, often delivered in a whisper over the phone.
Even worse, some of those who were first on the scene have died mysterious deaths. Some who investigate (and their families) continue to receive threats even now.
Something horrendous occurred here in Oklahoma City, and it's ongoing, because the truth is being covered up. Our government has been lying to us. The FBI has been withholding evidence. That's not conspiracy theory: that's proven truth. Those of us who actually care about these facts don't appreciate the likes of you telling us to move along, that's there's nothing here to see.
I suggest to you that if you don't like these discussions, if you find them somehow unseemly, that you be the one to move along. There's nothing here for you to see. You contribute nothing, but do your best to drown out those who do. That's disgusting. Shame, shame on you.
From Shooter 2.5's home page on FR:
I found out that I get things done much easier by just being a worker bee for our nation.
That explains a lot. How very...docile...
Only problem is that reality is a bit@h if the CT is true.
True. And this is why, I believe, many people of all stripes and politcal views, are so willing to believe any incredible string of coincidences, or are so adamantly against any view that offers any kind of conspiracy as an explanation for lies and unexplained events, even if such CT has a mountain of irrefutible evidence behind it. Dateline or CNN or The New Your Times can be caught red-handed (or would that be red-lipped, or something) lying through their teeth time after time, yet most people will continue to believe them, often times when they make up their own wild conspiracy theories, and ALWAYS if they are refuting a conspiracy theory.
Such strong inclinations, and even strong feelings, to just take what these major media outlets tell them, I assume is a combination of mental laziness (it's a lot of work to verify facts, I tell you) and fear of living in an unstable world where the major news media of even the freest nation on earth right now will directly lie to you, and mislead you.
Conspiracies are common as dirt. It's the way sinful man works. Coverups aere the most common kind of conspiracy, because people are so petty and prideful and self-worshipping. Yes, coverups are a conspiracy in themselves, and it is not a surprise that politicians of all types are very prone to want to coverup things, sometimes for reasons that would seem bizarre to us normal, working people.
Allow me to quote a section from a piece written by a friend of mine, called Fatal Aircraft Crashes: A Presidential Legacy. This guy spent a long, grueing year tracking down the rumors of all the associates of Clinton who died in aircraft crashes, most while he was in office. After examining each crash (the cause, the circumstances, the nature of the "association" with Clinton), this section I quote became the main point of his article, I think. He couldn't PROVE that any or all of these crashes were murderous sabotages by the Arkansas mafia, Clinton, or even Clinton's enemies. But given all the evidence and details he did uncover and VERIFY, he simply asks why it would be any less rational for someone to be suspicious that all or most of these people were murdered, than to conclude that it is all just an amazing coincidence. Maybe they were all coincidental accidents, and God was trying to tell Clinton something (I know not what), but is it ILLOGICAL or WACKY to suspect these rash of crashes are NOT an amazing coincidence?
Excerpt:
Explaining the Odds 22
According to statistics from the NTSB, between 1992 and 1998, in the United States, there was an average of 382 aircraft crashes per year involving fatalities. These statistics did not include military aircraft, but they did include crashes of such things as ultralights and experimental aircraft. Using this statistical figure from the NTSB, associates of Bill Clinton were killed in about 0.3 percent of the fatal aircraft crashes that occurred during his presidency. In the first 15 months of his presidency, the percentage was greater than one percent.(Emphasis mine)
Being the President of the United States, he will assumedly know more people than the average American citizen, and will therefore have a higher probability of knowing people that have died from any category of statistics. But even taking that into account, the numbers are startling. Certainly no other president in history since the invention of the airplane has lost so many people close to him from this relatively unusual cause of death. As noted earlier, these fatalities were all of either Clinton’s bodyguards or escorts, close associates who were top directors of his campaign finance committees, or personal friends, and none of these associates were someone merely claiming to know the President, or someone who had merely shaken his hand.
During Clinton’s two terms, there have also been an alarming number of deaths of other associates of his by suicide, homicide, unknown causes, and accidents other than aircraft crashes. The number of such deaths varies widely (from the thirties to the hundreds) depending on the source and the criteria used to determine who is actually an associate of Bill Clinton. Some sources have compiled long lists that include numerous indirect and debatable associations. But even the most conservative of these lists, including these deaths by aircraft crashes, and the suspicious circumstances surrounding some of these crashes, have understandably fueled numerous and varied conspiracy theories and have given rise to a common suspicion that the Clinton Administration, like a regime in some Third World country, has engaged in “cleaning house.”
But considering only the rate of these fatalities by aircraft crashes, and the indisputable association with Clinton of those killed, no explanation seems plausible. Conspiracy theories, coincidence theories, or a combination of the two are all unbelievable to the average, reasonable person; yet one of these three explanations has to be the truth.
Most of the major news media have assumed these fatal crashes to be an amazing coincidence. This assumption may have been easy to make because the crashes occurred over a number of years, so that even though there were a large number over a relatively short period of time, if they were considered one at a time as they occurred, enough time elapsed between them that each crash occurred when the crash before it had already become forgotten news.
But examining all these incidences together, to accept a theory of coincidence as an explanation for them, one has to accept that the events have unfolded in a way very contrary to the rules of odds or probability we are intuitively used to.
To accept a conspiracy theory as an explanation for these events, one would have to make any of an almost infinite number of assumptions, depending on the specific theory. Many of these assumptions would seem less reasonable than the assumption that the normal laws of probability were suspended.
But if the theory is some form of conspiracy that the White House has had these associates surreptitiously murdered for political reasons, as most of the conspiracy theories seem to speculate, to accept it one would have to make some assumptions about the President himself. It would have to be assumed that the President was an untrustworthy, untruthful person. It would be assumed he kept shady, unprincipled company, and that he was capable of anything.
So if President Clinton proved himself in public to be a liar, caught in blatant lies over and over; and if many of his friends and associates, past and present, have been convicted of a wide array of serious crimes, or are under investigation for crimes; and if the President has shown himself to have low moral principles, seen to be unfaithful to his family, caught smearing old lovers and friends to try to save his skin; and if he was known to be in the habit of covering up the truth and obstructing justice; if all these things were true of the President, then reasonable people who were paying attention might be excused for giving consideration to conspiracy theories which assert that these aircraft crashes were caused by sabotage ordered and covered up by the Administration. Sadly, it is as reasoned an explanation for these events as any other.
Thanks for reading my thoughts. Peace to you all.
The story you told in 237 is just a bunch of rumors and paranoia. TV reporters don’t lose their jobs because they report stories contrary to the way the government wants them reported. Aren't you old enough to remember how the liberal media attacked Nixon, Reagan, and Bush? Liberal TV news reporters, such as those on 60 Minutes, 20-20, and Dateline NBC, have been notorious over the years for attacking the government.
I worked on a story back in the ‘80s about a federal investigation of a crooked federal judge, who had taken a bribe from the father of a drug suspect. The FBI asked our news director for copies of all our video reports on the case, and our news director refused, telling the FBI to get a court order or a search warrant. The FBI finally got a court order, since our material had already been aired and wasn’t confidential or secret material, and then our news director turned over the on-air material. But we never had to turn over the unedited off-air material.
We could do any kind of story we wanted to do against the FBI and the feds, and nothing at all would happen to us. The feds finally convicted the judge, and Congress impeached him and threw him out of office.
Paranoid people like you, look for paranoid stories from other paranoid people. This is so obvious, most news reporters are experienced with people like you. You turn up at our front-office switchboards all the time, wanting to tell your story about some “great conspiracy” that came to you in a dream, or that you “figured out”, or that some psychic told you about. On the internet, there are just as many paranoids who think that UFO’s had something to do with the OKC bombing. We reporters get to meet all kinds of crackpots. We are well experienced with people like you.
I see you have some really dandy sources in your own right there fred . real class act that defunct tass bunch over there .
When you spend days trying to figure out what is under a piece of plastic after someone tells you that it's to protect the trinkets and rememberences that were laid near the OK building that's when I know the tin hat squad doesn't know how to investigate. Do you know anything about plywood covering a hole in the ground? Is the question of a Black/silver gun that Foster owned still raging? Do you want to argue if a Mauser is a Carcano? Was there a bulge in a cartridge?
When a conspiracy theorist makes up so much B.S. and it's accepted by the rest then you're part of the lie and you follow the lie like sheep.
From Shooter 2.5's home page on FR:
I found out that I get things done much easier by just being a worker bee for our nation.
That explains a lot. How very...docile...
Not only that, but our friend Shooter also has this to say..
We are very close to the brink where one group wants the other group's efforts and properties.
Sounds like he's a bit paranoid to me...
Former Lurker quotes Shooter 2.5.........
"We are very close to the brink where one group wants the other group's efforts and properties."
I think he is referring to the welfare liberals and Democrats who want to not work but receive welfare money from the government, while the rest of us work and pay taxes to the government. I thought that was “general knowledge”. You can’t trap us into appearing to be paranoid, because we aren’t paranoid.
The story you told in 237 is just a bunch of rumors and paranoia.
Just because you keep repeating that lie Fred doesn't make it true.
TV reporters don’t lose their jobs because they report stories contrary to the way the government wants them reported.
Funny, you didn't mention NEWSPAPER reporters in that sentence. Newspaper reporters get a little more leeway with their articles than do TV reporters. Any of THEM ever lose a job because of something they wrote?
TV news is prepared by the editor and producer. Nothing goes on the air that they don't approve. Any of them ever lose a job because of something that they allowed on the air?
Paranoid people like you, look for paranoid stories from other paranoid people.
Funny thing is Fred, you think we're all a part of some yet undefined communist plot. I think YOU'RE being a little paranoid. karebare thinks we all want to bomb some other government building. Now THAT'S being a little paranoid, don't you think? And mlo thought he found PROOF in an audio tape that verified his claim, yet didn't bother asking someone with any knowledge in audio/electrical engineering to verify that what he thought he had found could actually be possible. Now that's a wild story isn't it? And just a little paranoid to think that anyone contradicting his claims was a "conspiracy nut" out to get him. Fine group of buddies you have Fred.
This is so obvious, most news reporters are experienced with people like you.
You mean like how they destroyed Peter Salinger with lies and ridicule? Or perhaps how they reported that Ian Goddard had said things he didn't say in order to discredit him and his material? In fact, one of your pals was attempting to discredit Goddard because he was a Libertarian. Yep, we know ALL about how most news reporters are experienced with people like us.
You turn up at our front-office switchboards all the time, wanting to tell your story about some “great conspiracy” that came to you in a dream, or that you “figured out”, or that some psychic told you about. On the internet, there are just as many paranoids who think that UFO’s had something to do with the OKC bombing. We reporters get to meet all kinds of crackpots. We are well experienced with people like you.
They really should give you a new copy of the psyops disinformation manual Ferd, yours is obviously out of date. Anyone here can see through your attacks for what they are..
"We are very close to the brink where one group wants the other group's efforts and properties."
Another one who reads into something that isn't there. You and Clinton can discuss the word "is" for hours, can't you?
Now here is the challenge: Is my statement on my profile true or false?
Thanks for that fine post. Very well said..
Now here is the challenge: Is my statement on my profile true or false?
I don't know, why don't you explain to us who or what "that group" of people are.
I got much of my information about TASS from Library of Congress translations of original TASS reports. In the early ‘90s, I went to the Soviet Embassy in DC and ask the receptionist where I could find English translations of TASS articles. She directed me to the Library of Congress microfilm room. This is one of the pages I found..........
You haven't answered my question Fred. You think that it's ok for the government to commit criminal acts in order to coverup something that they want to hide from the public?
And if they're capable of violating the law in some cases, how do we know for a fact that they haven't in others? Should we come to you for guidance Fred? Are you the arbriter of truth?
In the early ‘90s, I went to the Soviet Embassy in DC and ask the receptionist where I could find English translations of TASS articles.
Sure that's ALL you were doing there Fred? You ever see that movie "Falcon and the Snowman"? Most people would of just picked up the phone and called to ask a simple question like that. You know the little jingle, "let you fingers do the walking"...
Flack ... Flack ... Flack
Throw enough flack/extraneous/nonsense into the system and it becomes impossibe to discern the fact from the fiction.
... the bad part is ... it works!
PLEASE ... TIME FOR A NEW THREAD. THIS ONE IS SLOOWW TO LOAD.
Thanks
I understand fred . But the very last place i would go is there . there are just to many places to gather data . It's like an agency that " investigates " it's own . In my mind , it is laughable to think credibility is intact .
Funny, you didn't mention NEWSPAPER reporters in that sentence.
That’s because I worked in TV. Should I have mentioned “newspapers, radio stations, wire services, magazines, newsletters, record/CD companies, movie companies, billboards, the Goodyear blimp advertising sign, etc., etc.”?? Stop being so paranoid.
TV news is prepared by the editor and producer.
TV news is prepared by the reporter, the cameraman, and at larger stations, the video tape editor. The news director or news producer generally decides on most of the stories to cover, but reporters often find their own stories. As far as I know, there is no “editor” in the TV business, except for the technician who operates the VCR editing equipment, under the direction of the reporter. Some stations have "assignment directors" and some people might call them an "assignment editor", but not usually.
Nothing goes on the air that they don't approve.
That’s not so. Most reports go on the air without prior approval. If a story goes on the air that the producer, news director, or general manager of the station doesn’t like, he/she talks to the reporter about it. Rule #1: Try to never criticize any sponsors or their products.
Any of them ever lose a job because of something that they allowed on the air?
Oh yes! Starting in the late ‘70s, TV reporters couldn’t criticize blacks or the NAACP. Out West, they couldn’t criticize blacks, Hispanics, or Native Americans. Usually, if a reporter says anything that isn’t considered liberally Politically Correct about “minority” groups, he/she can be fired. Now they can’t say bad things about fags and lesbians and a few other groups. But “the government” has always been fair game, since about the early ‘60s.
Funny thing is Fred, you think we're all a part of some yet undefined communist plot.
No I don’t. The real Communists are much smarter than you guys are. I’m saying you are victims of decades of anti-government Communist propaganda, just like the ecology nuts are victims of decades of “global warming” and “pollution” propaganda.
karebare thinks we all want to bomb some other government building. Now THAT'S being a little paranoid, don't you think?
Some anti-government paranoids do want to bomb other government buildings.
And mlo thought he found PROOF in an audio tape that verified his claim, yet didn't bother asking someone with any knowledge in audio/electrical engineering to verify that what he thought he had found could actually be possible. Now that's a wild story isn't it?
mlo has had a lot of experience in acoustical studies. He has some high-tech audio equipment that allows him to analyze audio recordings. I’ve found his work to be very reliable.
You mean like how they destroyed Peter Salinger with lies and ridicule?
Pierre Salinger, not “Peter”, and no one “destroyed” him.
Anyone here can see through your attacks for what they are..
Yeah? Like some sort of “conspiracy”, huh?
You're welcome. Than YOU for reading it - you may be the only person who took the time. :)
Thanks for your post ...
... forgot to mention the President appeared to have staged "wag the dog" bombings; timed so as to distract the public from stragetic announcements of import in regard to findings in serious cases.
It continues to work.
... and so it goes.
Sure that's ALL you were doing there Fred?
Yeah. Anyone can go into any Embassy in Washington. A couple of years ago I called the Vatican Embassy and the Austrian Embassy for information. But since I was in DC on a research trip, I wanted to actually go into the old Russian Embassy.
What a thrill! I had seen the building in many news reports over the years. If you ever want some cheap thrills while in DC, I suggest you go inside the Russian and PROC Embassies. As a matter of fact, that might be a good test of “paranoia”. Are you brave enough to go into the Russian and PROC Embassies? How about the J. Edgar Hoover building? LOL! How about the CIA headquarters?
Most people would of just picked up the phone and called to ask a simple question like that. You know the little jingle, "let you fingers do the walking"...
I’ve done that with other embassies, but I planned a trip up to Maryland to interview an old guy about the JFK case. I spent a few days in DC, and I really wanted to go inside the old Soviet Embassy. I was amazed that they sent me to the Library of Congress!
But that was back around ’90 or ’91, and things were much different in Russia than they were in the old earlier Cold War days.
And mlo thought he found PROOF in an audio tape that verified his claim, yet didn't bother asking someone with any knowledge in audio/electrical engineering to verify that what he thought he had found could actually be possible.
I don't normally even read your posts because you are liar. I happened to see this comment though and I'll correct it. This issue you took up with me was not proof of anything and I didn't offer it as proof. It was one tiny detail in a larger analysis, and what I claimed about it was possible. All the giberish you want to spout from text you found on web pages that you don't understand won't change that. Regardless of whether that one point you didn't like was true or not (which doesn't change the result), the rest of that analysis does contain proof that Rivero misrepresented what is on those tapes and is lying to all of you about them. If you were really interested in the TRUTH then this would matter to you. Obviously you and golitely and roughrider are only interested in what you can find to support the ideas you already have and if someone lies in support of those ideas, well, that's OK. I'm amazed that Fred has the patience to keep dealing with you. You aren't worth my time.
Please ... may there be thread 2? My computer takes so long to load now.
Good thread keep it going.
"It is also a peculiar rule for someone who has claimed to be an "investigative" reporter. If every investigative reporter did what F(r)ed25 suggests, there would never be any exposes. But then, that would please an awful lot of people, wouldn't it?"
Don't forget that when "Investigative reporter" Fred was debating the OK City bombing case, he had to resoprt to fraudulent documents and faked photos to try to cast doubt on the originals, which were later shown to be genuine.
I understand fred . But the very last place i would go is there . there are just to many places to gather data . It's like an agency that " investigates " it's own . In my mind , it is laughable to think credibility is intact .
Ok, dorben, here’s your assignment..... Let’s see how fast you can turn up English-translation copies and transcripts of 1963 TASS articles, WITHOUT using the internet, which I didn’t have in 1991. Also, you are not allowed to go to the Soviet Embassy or the Library of Congress, which you say I shouldn't have gone to.
Now you tell me how to find 1963 TASS reports. I’ll wait here for you to post them to this thread, and I DON’T accept reformatted pdf files. I want copes of the most original documents you can find.
I don't normally even read your posts because you are liar.
You know what mlo? You're not just a liar, but you're also an IDIOT who thinks that nobody here can figure out your amaturish attempt at discrediting evidence.
I'd have a few other things I could say about you, but I'll try to keep it civil...
" I think a missile could have shot down flight 800. "
From Fred's post 198.
"When I first saw that CIA computer-generate video, the first day it was released to the media, I said, “Uh Oh! Cover-up!"
Okay, so there you have it. Fred admits the government lies and engages in cover-ups.
And don't forget that Fred himself believes in conspiracies. He has posted many times that the theory of a conspiracy in the JFK assassination is in itself a conspiracy, by the Russians. And, Fred has many times responded to arguments he is losing by claiming that everyone is "in cahoots" with the commies, which is just hillbilly speak for "being in a conspiracy with".
Fred, you cannot have it both ways. If the Russians can have conspiracies then so can our government. If you admit that the government has covered up TWA 800 then you cannot assume that what you think oyu know of other scandals is not also a cover-up.
The burden of proof has shifted from those who claim the governmnent is lying to those who claim the government is telling the truth, and citing a report is not proof of the truth, not when the reports themselves are by that very same government.
Your claim to be a reporter doesn't gift you with any greater wisdom or awareness of the world. Indeed it limits you, because as a reporter, you are a slave to that newswire and what comes over it. This last July 17th I spoke with some former news producers from a St. Louis affiliate, and they had no idea there was any problem with the TWA 800 crash because they truly believed that what was coming over the news wire was the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; a belief which was encouraged by management. Now they no otherwise, of course. They know that the newswires themselves are the chief promulgators of government propaganda and that even the presenters at the local stations don't know they are speaking untruths to the public.
So Fred, here's a question for you. In the posts above you admitted that you agree the government is lying to the public.
Over your lifetime, assuming a reasonable earnings ability, you have paid close to a quarter million in taxes to the government. Do you think the government that took all that money from you has the right to lie to you?
If you think the government has a right to lie to us, please show us all where in the Constitution that right is explicitly granted to the government.
If you agree that the government does NOT have the right to lie to us, as you admitted the government does, then WHY AREN'T YOU ANGRY ABOUT IT? Why are you (and the rest of your cohorts) so angry with those of us who ask no money but merely wish to point out the government's lies, while at the same time so defensive and supportive of a government that DOES take so much of your money and then lies to you for it?
It just doesn't seem like a normal human reaction to admit that the government that takes so much from you lies, then turn around and try to defend that same government from others who say that it lies. It's like seeing an abused child defending the abusing parent; you just know there's some sick psychology going on.
So, how about it Fred, do you think the government has a right to lie to the public? Yes or no?
OOOOPPSS! Forgot.
Did you see this?
"Sorry, kids, but Fascism is historically associated with National Socialism, and National Socialism was a centralized, collectivist federal authority. Fascism is an institution of statism, and unbridled statism is antithetical to the true conservative thought of those on the "right." And as much as tight-eyed crypto-Marxist intellectuals on the collectivist American left many try to deny it, Marxism is unbridled statism.
7/ 18/ 01. Excerpt from article by Coyote on Fascism. Free Republic."
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b548ccc25e5.htm#last
Here's a link to CONSPIRACY THEORY/FACT - Part 2
The allegations about media censorship are simply not true - they are badly understated!
I once gave a Washington Post reporter the information he seemed intent on tracking down. His response, "This issue isn't about the truth." I took a 'wink' for granted.
Therefore, given such events as that; and the identically styled recent slam-dunk of three network shows on the TWA-800 story, only one thing can be true, whether Fred likes it or not.
For reference, all three shows led the safety activists to believe that the truth would be presented. At the last second, the programming was 'changed' to present the same nonsense as before.
The "TWA-800" Web page at -
www.webpak.net/~skydream
- was given the top spot on airlinebiz.com for the day of the anniversary, but that appeared to be the only prominent coverage of the truth.
Maybe the reporters don't always lose their jobs, but, as a minimum, they do get manipulated to the max.
The term 'conspiracy' is getting such a bad name, it needs to be replaced with the more appropriate term, 'propaganda.'
Not that communists don't exist, but the frequent references to 'leftist' is a clever diversion from the accurate term, "New World Order," whether the 'Freds' and their controllers like it or not.
The easy distinction is whether or not huge profits are being protected by the propaganda.
In case some of you have never seen the “fake document” that one of the resident liars here keeps saying I made up, here is a link to it. I drew it up on my computer to show how easy it is to fake documents that can be posted on the internet. You should always be suspicious of all documents that don’t look like photocopies of originals.
Needless to say, I added some subtle humorous stuff to my “document”, so that intelligent people would realize it is a parody of other fake documents posted on internet message boards.
A similar computer-generated document that anyone can type up. Notice no evidence of photocopying..........
Fred .. I should have been a bit more clear in my post . naturally things are different now , as anyone can plainly see . I was thinking of the fact that people of all types can easily run other's around in circles because they do have what we seek . As you know , as well as scores of people on this thread know , it's a power trip these people have . I was trying to say , consider the source without using an old tired cliche .
bump
... for the sunday afternoon readers
On to thread 2.
”And we're not?”
I fear we are. Every major TV network newsreader and every major newspaper chain seems to me nearly word for word identical on the government spin – which was my point.
However, remember the scientific definition of a theory is a hipothesis that takes into account and satisfactorily explains all the known facts.
True, but don’t forget Occam’s Razor. A conspiracy theory can’t be so complicated and convoluted that it requires hundreds of thousands of people to carry it off, without any of them ever “spilling the beans” about it during the next 60-80 years. Such a thing is impossible.
A conspiracy theory can’t be so complicated and convoluted that it requires hundreds of thousands of people to carry it off, without any of them ever “spilling the beans” about it during the next 60-80 years. Such a thing is impossible.
And which "theory" involved that many people?
bump to the top
bump to the top
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